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Inaccuracies, Fear Mongering, and DNM

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Old 12-16-2015, 06:00 PM
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@Gnostic Dog im unsure if where i am they do them! will have to ask dr mike and even if they do no doubt it will be the cost of a fecal sent off to teh lab $160 when the vaccines are 139 dollars. Will ask him today, Charlie isnt that active struggling with his arthirtis and his walks but does come into contact occasionaly with other dogs and other then arthirtis and fatty lumps and loss of muscle mass he is healthy
The cheap titre test is called Vaccicheck, I think it is around $35 (US) if your vet doesn't have them, perhaps he could get some in, I think they have to buy 10 at a time, but I am sure he would have other clients that would buy the test also.

Show him this link or this Biogal - VacciCheck®. It looks like they have a distributor in Australia, but it doesn't say if they also serve NZ.
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:23 PM
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Thanks @Gnostic Dog much appreciate those links! Will show him for sure if need to.
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Edit asking him and gave him the link vaccicheck one
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Last edited by crazy; 12-16-2015 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:06 PM
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No lab here does it you have to import the kit yourself from usa then send to usa. However Charlie not due for 14 months yet thankfully dr mike told me. Just kennel cough incase has to go kennel which is likely in July.
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:25 PM
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Correct, neither vaccines and titres are perfect. Therein lies the issue, vaccination/= immunization. They are not one and the same thing. Immunity is fundamentally a natural phenomenon, being the greatly reduced susceptibility to infection following exposure to a potential pathogen. The result being a FULL body immune response. Vaccines don't immunize, they can't duplicate that process because they only engage one part of the immune system, the humoral immune response (antibodies). Vaccines bypass the natural processes which are designed to engage the whole immune system. All that science has to test efficacy, and that is what the whole vaccination program is based on, is serum antibody production (titres), which is only the end result of the immune process. There is no way to measure innate immunity (cell-mediated). You can have cell-mediated immunity without any antibodies, in the same vein, you can have high antibody levels and still contract the disease.
Live vaccines actually do induce an immune response almost equivalent to that of the wild-type pathogen (including cell mediated immunity).

Also, I wouldn't say that vaccination/=immunization. You are generally considered fully immunized after a certain number of sets of inactivated or live vaccinations.

The rest is true, which is why vaccines aren't perfect. However, non-live vaccines that engage the humoral immune system have still been proven to be quite effective and safer than live vaccines. There are downsides, such as needing boosters to maintain serum antibody levels. Inactivated vaccines also do not provide effective immunity in some cases, like TB. When it comes to the core vaccines in dogs, all of the inactivated forms are very effective.

Let's take the polio vaccine, for example. There is both a live form and an inactivated form. The inactivated form came first, and was very effective. 99% of people were fully immune after 3 doses. Wiped polio right out of the US. The live vaccine is also effective, but causes paralytic poliomyelitis in three cases out of a million (still extremely rare). The only benefit of the live vaccine over the inactivated is that the live vaccine provides lifelong immunity.
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:38 PM
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Personally, I do vaccinate my pets. Vaccines are generally safe and safer than most things in modern veterinary medicine, IMO. In the end, it's for each and every owner to decide what's best for their dog. I'm sure someone that's against vaccinating their dogs could counter everything you've posted. I'm not saying it's true here but I do think people will state opinions as fact or science at times. Live and let live, I guess.
The problem I have with it being each owner's choice is that choosing not to vaccinate healthy dogs for no reason destroys herd immunity and puts the dogs that can't be vaccinated in danger. Applies to humans, too.
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Old 12-17-2015, 08:18 AM
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So get your flu shot. There is a thing called freedom of speech in this country. It even applies to people you may disagree with. Hey, so do you treat your dog with the stuff that turns him into a pesticide? Do you THINK it may be harmful to you and other humans? How about reading some reviews (or should those negative reviews be censored too?) -> Nexgard Reviews
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:07 AM
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Inaccuracies, Fear Mongering, and DNM

I treat my dog with preventatives when the need arises because we have things like the bubonic plague where I live. He's never had a reaction to preventatives. I use Frontline, though. Are there dogs who do badly? Yes. It's not for every dog. You use what works for your dog. If I could find a natural way that works, I would use it. But so far Frontline works best and doesn't cause any side effects in my dog. I also only use it when I see fleas.

No, I don't think flea and tick preventatives are harmful to me or other humans. Just don't touch the application site for 24 hours and you're fine. I've never heard of anyone getting sick from giving their dog preventatives.

Negative reviews are fine, but the majority of those are negative because people are more motivated to post about things when they are outraged. Negative reviews also aren't science.

I also said nothing about censorship or freedom of speech. Say whatever you want, but if you're going to educate others, you should make sure your information is scientifically accurate and not dangerous fear mongering.
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Last edited by Aurora; 12-17-2015 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:41 AM
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Live vaccines actually do induce an immune response almost equivalent to that of the wild-type pathogen (including cell mediated immunity).

Also, I wouldn't say that vaccination/=immunization. You are generally considered fully immunized after a certain number of sets of inactivated or live vaccinations.

The rest is true, which is why vaccines aren't perfect. However, non-live vaccines that engage the humoral immune system have still been proven to be quite effective and safer than live vaccines. There are downsides, such as needing boosters to maintain serum antibody levels. Inactivated vaccines also do not provide effective immunity in some cases, like TB. When it comes to the core vaccines in dogs, all of the inactivated forms are very effective.

Let's take the polio vaccine, for example. There is both a live form and an inactivated form. The inactivated form came first, and was very effective. 99% of people were fully immune after 3 doses. Wiped polio right out of the US. The live vaccine is also effective, but causes paralytic poliomyelitis in three cases out of a million (still extremely rare). The only benefit of the live vaccine over the inactivated is that the live vaccine provides lifelong immunity.
You are "considered" "immunized after a series of vaccinations because of serum antibody levels. However there is such a thing as a non-responder, and it doesn't matter how many vaccinations they get.

It does appear core (viral) vaccines are effective in dogs which is why annual vaccination for them is unnecessary and puts them at risk for adverse effects. Bacterial vaccines are pretty much useless. As for TB, the human BCG vaccine which was never used in the US, was found to be worse than useless in a WHO trial in India (back in the 1970s I think), the vaccinated group showed cases of TB the unvaccinated control group had none.

I think you have your polio vaccines mixed up. While the inactivated polio vaccine developed by Salk was the initial vaccine used, from the early 1960s, the live Sabin vaccine (IPO) was the most used in the US and is attributed to the eradication of polio in the US (and worldwide). The inactivated vaccine (IPV) was then re-introduced in the US. You are correct that the IPO vaccine has caused acute flaccid paralysis in the third world countries and the only cause now of polio is from the live vaccine.
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:44 AM
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The problem I have with it being each owner's choice is that choosing not to vaccinate healthy dogs for no reason destroys herd immunity and puts the dogs that can't be vaccinated in danger. Applies to humans, too.
Now you are on very shaky ground. This post clearly shows you do not have a full understanding of the vaccination issue. But this isn't the place to go into this topic in depth.
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Old 12-17-2015, 10:13 AM
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Inaccuracies, Fear Mongering, and DNM

Yes, there are non-responders. There are always outliers, which is why herd immunity is so important. To protect those that do not respond or are not healthy enough to be vaccinated.

Yes, there are some vaccines that are ineffective. Perhaps future research will provide an effective vaccine.

You're right about the polio vaccines, that was my error. Thanks for providing the correct information. It was late last night, and I did not read as much material as I should have.

So a few people (or dogs) out of a million have adverse reactions. What's better? Preventing a few people (very rare) from having adverse reactions, or preventing whole populations from contracting the disease?

Polio aside; let's talk dogs. You say I'm on shaky ground after mentioning herd immunity. You say it's not the place to go in depth, but I disagree. The vaccination issue does apply to dogs, and herd immunity does as well. I would like to hear what you have to say about herd immunity.

I'm still waiting for the sources that led you to believe the rabies vaccine causes cancer, joint disease, and allergies.
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Last edited by Aurora; 12-17-2015 at 10:16 AM.
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