Body-wt vs "Condition" - fit isn't a number... - Page 3

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Body-wt vs "Condition" - fit isn't a number...

This is a discussion on Body-wt vs "Condition" - fit isn't a number... within the Dog Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; this pool is a disappointment - shallow, outdoors, no overhead protection from sun / storms / rain, nowhere nearby to hose the chorine out of ...

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Old 08-29-2017, 02:09 PM
  #21
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Unhappy this one falls short...

this pool is a disappointment -
shallow, outdoors, no overhead protection from sun / storms / rain, nowhere nearby to hose the chorine out of the dog's coat & off their skin, & apparently 'swimming' is a group activity for daycare-clients' dogs; no by-appt individual time.

Doggie daycare in Chester Virginia

As it's outside, it's only usable 8 or 9-mos per year - & that's if it's heated OR has a solar blanket to warm the water, which limits use - it takes a few hours to warm up a pool, even with a solar blanket.

- terry

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Old 08-29-2017, 08:34 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
just cutting the quantity of food to force wt-loss is very stressful, & can easily create serious unintended fallout -
resource guarding / food guarding in a dog who did *not* previously RG,
snuffling up & eating every bit of garbage they encounter on a walk,
diving into trash-cans at home or abroad to see if there's FOOD in there,
etc. None of these is desirable, RG is fixable,
- terry


I gotta chuckle a bit. How did we get from keeping a dog fit and hale to RG?? I'll remind you of the obvious, RG is mostly innate and exhibited from a tender young age as the pup learns "survival of the fittest". Also, who lets their dog do this? " eating every bit of garbage they encounter on a walk,"
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:12 PM
  #23
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Talking Dogs' constant sniffing at the ground, ENABLES garbage-gobbling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveDog View Post

...
How did we get from keeping a dog fit and hale to RG??
I'll remind you of the obvious, RG is mostly innate and exhibited from a tender young age as the pup learns "survival of the fittest".
Umm.
Pups who grow-up as only dogs often never display RG - since they have no perception of scarcity, there's no knee-jerk impulse to "defend my food".
Even dogs who grow-up in multi-dog households where the dogs are not allowed to roam bowl to bowl, but restricted to their own, never show or learn RG.

Yes, i agree that RG is normal behavior; no, i don't agree that it's automatic, inevitable, or even essential.
It only becomes needed WHEN it's needed; otherwise, it's like brachiating in humans - we can still do it, sure, but we don't 'need' it day to day!

Dogs can live out their lives, & never "need" to use RG; they can remain blissfully ignorant of it, & they are obviously survivors - they didn't die young, they lived well & lived full lifespans

U seem to have forgotten that the primary focus of Darwin & evolution wasn't the individual - who can die for any number of reasons that are utterly unrelated to their personal genetic or physical or adaptive fitness; evolution & Darwin were concerned with population-wide effects that arise from CUMULATIVE effects of many individual, adaptive mutations, & the genetic changes that drive them.

Perfectly healthy young animals die b/c they're in the wrong place at the precisely wrong time; lightning does strike, rocks do fall, banks become mudslides, sinkholes form, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, wildfires, ______ .
Additionally, healthy young animals die because they are found by a predator - not b/c they are flawed, defective, sick, stoopid... they're just healthy babies. Infant birds can't fly; infant deer can't outrun predators; infant bunnies, blind & hairless, can't flee a domestic cat - who will eat the brains of the babies, & leave their bodies, as there isn't enuf meat on them to make them worth eating; the fatty brain is a calorie-rich delicacy.

I will also remind U that Darwin said that symbiosis is 'rare' - he was wrong. // Collaboration between unrelated species is far-more common than he ever dreamed, & dogs co-evolving with humans is a perfect example.

Co-operation (evolution) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-operation_(evolution)
Co-operation in evolution is the process where groups of organisms work or act together for ... Prominent biologists, such as Charles Darwin, E. O. Wilson, and W. D. Hamilton, have found the evolution of cooperation fascinating because natural .... Mutualism is a form of symbiosis in which both participating species benefit.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveDog View Post

... who lets their dog do this?
"eating every bit of garbage they encounter on a walk"
who sez they "let" their dog eat garbage & litter from the ground?

It's easy for a dog, even while on leash, to find something & eat it -- long, long-before U'd even know they'd found it, let alone have any chance to interrupt, & prevent them swallowing it! - hence, my suggestion that any dog prone to scarf-up junk should pre-emptively be taught to wear a box-muzzle happily.

An off-leash dog, of course, can barely pause in their forward motion & still be able to gobble up something; we won't even be aware of it, unless something tips us off -- G-I troubles afterward, perhaps, or seeing debris in their stool a day or so later, or a charnel reek on the dog's breath when s/he comes close. Blecch.

Dogs who are chronically hungry from a strict diet can easily become garbage-hounds, when they previously ignored overripe burgers, moldy mystery-meat, rotting fruit dotted with delirious hornets, & other former-food; but dogs who learn that their owner / handler will snatch the goody from their very lips will swallow stuff just to "save it from us", & that gets very dangerous, indeed.
Those are the dogs who swallow bamboo skewers, greasy foil from the 4th of July burgers on the grill, etc.

- terry

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Old 08-30-2017, 08:56 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
Umm.

Dogs who are chronically hungry from a strict diet




Huh???? We are not talking about "chronic hunger" we are talking about adjusting a dog's diet and exercise regime in order to shape a fit and conditioned dog.

There is nothing dramatic or as you stated "just cutting the quantity of food to force wt-loss is very stressful, & can easily create serious unintended fallout -" when tailoring an appropriate diet for a dog's activity level and overall well-being.
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Old 08-30-2017, 09:22 AM
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Red face heavens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveDog View Post

Huh???? We are not talking about "chronic hunger" we are talking about adjusting a dog's diet and exercise regime in order to shape a fit and conditioned dog.

There is nothing dramatic or as you stated "just cutting the quantity of food to force wt-loss is very stressful, & can easily create serious unintended fallout -" ...
oh, for pity's sake, DD -
read my original post. YES, there CAN be behavioral fallout if U tackle fat-loss simplistically, & aim for rapid wt-loss by strictly limiting QUANTITY of food.
And i list some of those possible behaviors, among them "eating garbage or litter".

However - as i go on to suggest - reducing calories rather than quantity by replacing a given measured volume of the dog's Usual Diet with plain canned pumpkin provides the same volume of food per meal, thus the same satiety; the dog doesn't feel desperately deprived, & they are no more likely to dig in the trash at home or gobble garbage while on a walk, then they were, previously.

I hope i have clarified this issue satisfactorily? // No-one i know "LETS" their dog eat garbage or swallow inedible / dangerous items, but it happens because dogs' noses are so often hovering above the ground, & hoovering-up trash like a vacuum cleaner can happen in an instant.

I am outlining a well-known, simple way to help peel excess flab off a dog the same way it went on - steadily, ounces at a time - while slowly improving their fitness with increased exercise.
It's not rocket surgery. And it's not expensive - if U buy pumpkin puree by the case, U often get a discount. A dozen 15-oz cans don't take up a vast amount of space.

Peeling fat off one's dog doesn't mean signing-up for the k9 equivalent of Jenny Craig & buying a new freezer to store all those "special meals" - it's an easy DIY.

cheers,
- terry

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Old 08-30-2017, 09:45 AM
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Glad to see you using the word "can" instead of your absolutes.
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:30 AM
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Question which "absolutes"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveDog View Post

Glad to see you using the word "can" instead of your absolutes.
my "absolutes" ? Hmm.


Originally Posted by leashedForLife

just cutting the quantity of food to force wt-loss is very stressful, & can easily create serious unintended fallout -
- resource guarding / food guarding in a dog who did *not* previously RG,
- snuffling up & eating every bit of garbage they encounter on a walk,
- diving into trash-cans at home or abroad to see if there's FOOD in there, etc.



Where's that pesky "absolute", then?

Note that i added a space & a dash, to delineate the vertical list more-clearly.

cheers,
- terry

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Old 08-30-2017, 03:25 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
Umm.
Pups who grow-up as only dogs often never display RG - since they have no perception of scarcity, there's no knee-jerk impulse to "defend my food".
Even dogs who grow-up in multi-dog households where the dogs are not allowed to roam bowl to bowl, but restricted to their own, never show or learn RG.

Yes, i agree that RG is normal behavior; no, i don't agree that it's automatic, inevitable, or even essential.
It only becomes needed WHEN it's needed; otherwise, it's like brachiating in humans - we can still do it, sure, but we don't 'need' it day to day!

Dogs can live out their lives, & never "need" to use RG; they can remain blissfully ignorant of it, & they are obviously survivors - they didn't die young, they lived well & lived full lifespans

U seem to have forgotten that the primary focus of Darwin & evolution wasn't the individual - who can die for any number of reasons that are utterly unrelated to their personal genetic or physical or adaptive fitness; evolution & Darwin were concerned with population-wide effects that arise from CUMULATIVE effects of many individual, adaptive mutations, & the genetic changes that drive them.

Perfectly healthy young animals die b/c they're in the wrong place at the precisely wrong time; lightning does strike, rocks do fall, banks become mudslides, sinkholes form, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, wildfires, ______ .
Additionally, healthy young animals die because they are found by a predator - not b/c they are flawed, defective, sick, stoopid... they're just healthy babies. Infant birds can't fly; infant deer can't outrun predators; infant bunnies, blind & hairless, can't flee a domestic cat - who will eat the brains of the babies, & leave their bodies, as there isn't enuf meat on them to make them worth eating; the fatty brain is a calorie-rich delicacy.

I will also remind U that Darwin said that symbiosis is 'rare' - he was wrong. // Collaboration between unrelated species is far-more common than he ever dreamed, & dogs co-evolving with humans is a perfect example.

Co-operation (evolution) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-operation_(evolution)
Co-operation in evolution is the process where groups of organisms work or act together for ... Prominent biologists, such as Charles Darwin, E. O. Wilson, and W. D. Hamilton, have found the evolution of cooperation fascinating because natural .... Mutualism is a form of symbiosis in which both participating species benefit.




who sez they "let" their dog eat garbage & litter from the ground?

It's easy for a dog, even while on leash, to find something & eat it -- long, long-before U'd even know they'd found it, let alone have any chance to interrupt, & prevent them swallowing it! - hence, my suggestion that any dog prone to scarf-up junk should pre-emptively be taught to wear a box-muzzle happily.

An off-leash dog, of course, can barely pause in their forward motion & still be able to gobble up something; we won't even be aware of it, unless something tips us off -- G-I troubles afterward, perhaps, or seeing debris in their stool a day or so later, or a charnel reek on the dog's breath when s/he comes close. Blecch.

Dogs who are chronically hungry from a strict diet can easily become garbage-hounds, when they previously ignored overripe burgers, moldy mystery-meat, rotting fruit dotted with delirious hornets, & other former-food; but dogs who learn that their owner / handler will snatch the goody from their very lips will swallow stuff just to "save it from us", & that gets very dangerous, indeed.
Those are the dogs who swallow bamboo skewers, greasy foil from the 4th of July burgers on the grill, etc.

- terry

RGing usually does not have much to do with how much food a dog has. It has everything to do with just how valuable the dog finds what it has. They can guard the most insane things imaginable. My dog Shadow would have a whole bowl of food, he'd take 3 pieces of kibble, and go lay on his bed. He'd proceed to guard those 3 pieces of kibble from my other dog and cat. Shadow started his RGing when he was 8 months old. He'd always had plenty to eat, he never had his chews or food confiscated, he never had them "stolen" by another pet. He had 0 reason to resource guard. One day I was sitting on the floor, he was between my legs gnawing on a chew, and I was brushing him. He started growling. From then on he resource guarded his chews.

Zody again has never been deprived. He asks for food and he gets some. He's never been raised with other pets, always been an only pet. If I have another dog over, even one that he gets along with outside the house. He will resource guard anything that he considers his, toys, bed, me, the floor. If I have him over by a friends house, and I have him on my lap, if the other dog comes close Zody starts guarding.

The reason you give for RG is very simplistic, and I've found that it's very rare that it's that simple.

I've also found that dogs are highly opportunistic. It does not matter just how well fed they are, if they come across something that they think smells yummy they will grab it. It does not matter if they have just been fed a huge meal right before going on a walk, if they come across something that they think is appetizing they are going to eat it. it's why we teach leave it, and drop it. Although with my little snatch and gulp artist he can be swallowing something right as I realize he's grabbed it. Drop it at that point doesn't work I'd love a basket muzzle, but unfortunately every brand I've looked at does not make one for a dog his size.
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:35 PM
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Alright. I am going to be completely honest and admit there isn't even a chance that I was or am going to read all of this. BUT from that I have read it seems to be getting a little tense in here. A perfect time to remind everyone of the WONDERFUL rules we have here are DF. PARTICULARLY #1. Be Nice.

https://www.dogforum.com/dogforum-com...om-rules-1606/

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Old 08-30-2017, 09:49 PM
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Smile Yes, dogs R opportunistic eaters.

@Rain ,
i know that dogs are opportunistic eaters - a dog who just ate a whole bowl of food, half their day's calories, will happily gobble the hot-dog that a neighbor offers over the fence during their cookout...
& the neighbor is shocked at the dog's apparent "hunger", LOL.

Kids are capable of eating a meal, then engulfing a milkshake or ice-cream-soda when they just claimed they "couldn't eat another bite!"... of food, as opposed to dessert.

However, i've also had clients tell me how badly their dogs reacted to "strict diets" of sharply-reduced meal sizes when their vets told them that the dogs really did need to lose weight - & yes, those dogs began turning over the kitchen trash-can, ran to check the radius of the Dumpster when off-leash at the park, & grabbed old fried-chicken bones that passing slobs had discarded along the bike path.
A 2-week-old dried-up brittle fried chicken-bone has practically nothing but calcium to offer - it's certainly not tasty, it only smells 'like' food.

re RG, it's not so much a dog's "perception of plenty" as lack of competition / no interference that makes individual dogs fail to display RG; for 'only' dogs, there's no other dog to "defend" food from.
In a well-managed multi-dog household, the dogs have no chance to shoulder another dog aside, or dive into a partial bowl that's momentarily unattended.
Observing each dog's appetite day to day is one way to track health - a lack of appetite is worth noting, but if we let the dogs finish up one anothers' leftovers, how do we know that one dog isn't feeling chipper?
Also, letting a dog finish another dog's food after eating their own quickly adds extra pounds.

IME, input / appetite & output [urine & feces] are both important, & deserve our attn.

- terry

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