8-week old Belgian Shepherd/Tervuren too smalll? - Page 2

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8-week old Belgian Shepherd/Tervuren too smalll?

This is a discussion on 8-week old Belgian Shepherd/Tervuren too smalll? within the Dog Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Excellent advice on the handling of giardia, Terry! The create is typical wire type (heavy duty) with a divider in it. Upon receiving it and ...

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Old 01-16-2018, 05:53 PM
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Excellent advice on the handling of giardia, Terry! The create is typical wire type (heavy duty) with a divider in it. Upon receiving it and setting it up, I don't like it. Might be changing it out. Definitely isn't easy to clean all those bars and corners. But the back end, the part he's blocked off from, looks flawed, potentially unsafe.

Is there any benefit to pouring any bleach water on places where he's been deficating thus far? I'll try to start catching the poo in the meantime.

Is bathing very effective without chlorhexidine, with regard to stickiness of cysts clinging to fur? I searched for chlorhexidine shampoo locally today, but no dice. Been using Burt's Bees dog shampoo in the meantime. Found a spray that has the ingredient, and got it, but I don't know how effective it is as it doesn't indicate the % of chlorhexidine.

I'm already thinking about changing vets just due to how they went about (or didn't go about) informing me about giardia. I was given generic Flagyl antibiotic and instructions for administration. They gave me a hand out about giardia that at least mentioned the typical course of treatment being the antibiotic along with fenbendazole, but didn't say what fenbendazole was, let alone what it was in. I would have just thought it another Rx drug had I not researched giardia on my own. They gave no instructions about bathing with chlorhexidine shampoo, though I think something about bathing was mentioned, but it was vague. I added some SafeGuard dewormer to the mix to increase the effectiveness. Vet said he should be OK to go to puppy classes once the diarrhea stops. Looks better today. Here's to hoping.

Little guy (Brax) was suddenly ill the last couple of days. Thought it was the giardia getting worse. X-RAY looks like he maybe ingested something small and slow to digest--maybe cat litter (could also be gravel?), but he hasn't once been in the part of the house where the cat box is. Still, pieces travel, and he seems highly focused on rooting his nose in the corners and crevasses, along the walls, especially when he's hungry, which is constant almost, despite feeding him a bit more than the recommended amount (10 lbs dogs' serving size, per the vet, when he was only weighing 7 lbs). A rough go of it he's had, for sure. Good news was he weighed 8.74 lbs in their office yesterday, despite some difficulties with diarrhea, which was a nearly 2 lbs increase since the week prior. Portable scales might be slightly different at the vet's, but my home scales showed he gained more than a pound, too, so at least something's sticking to his sides despite the giardia and digestive issues. Other than yesterday when he had no energy and no appetitte and day 2 of the runs, he's been a (sweet) demon. Good energy, but not hyper, and hungry. Vet acted like the giardia wasn't too difficult to treat, said some clients sometimes have to go on a second round of antibiotic to clear it up. I'm sitting there just thinking I know the internet has a lot of misinformation, but I can also sort through the bull**** at this point in my life. Giardia isn't that easy for a lot of people, even with two rounds of antibiotic. And for goodness sake...why are they using antibiotics as the first go-to if its already ineffective maybe 30 to 40% of the time? Seems like it would only build resistance.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:38 PM
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Did the vet check your pup for Parvo? Diarrhea and listlessness are signs associated with Parvo. If his immune system is down due to the Giardia, he could have picked up another virus of some type. Parvo is very serious, much more so than Giardia.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:39 PM
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Did the vet check your pup for Parvo? Diarrhea and listlessness are signs associated with Parvo. If his immune system is down due to the Giardia, he could have picked up another virus of some type.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:48 PM
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Lightbulb Dig-enzymes, plus probiotics by the BILLIONS

.

2 things i thot of can help him feel better now, & function better later / lifelong:
- hi-potency probiotics
- Digestive enzymes

Probiotics help build his gut-flora back up; the bad microbes need to be outnumbered by the nice commensals.
Digestive enzymes cannot be stored; they're given with every meal, to help break food down so he absorbs nutrients better.
Basically, same amt of food goes in, but fewer nutrients are "thrown away".

RenewLife is a very high-quality U-S made brand.



https://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-f...robiotics.html

https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/rene...psules/rw-7022

- terry

.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:42 PM
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I have raised 2 mals. And 3 of same litter purchased by friends so saw them grow at very different rates over 18 months. My boy "was last born n smallest" is now largest. Re. Worry about sight. I too worried with my first, that compared to a gsd, it had quite poor vision. But both of them seemed to take a couple of weeks to begin to see in periphary. So dont stress there. I am concerned that your vet could not find 2 testes. They r tiny admittedly but definately palpable. And wonder what the breeder says about this sick pup. Non descended testes: infertility probs. Cancer risk increase and risk of them strangulating. If not palpable in scrotum or in the canal consider seeking a refund. To locate a missing teste is a few thousand dollors here in Oz.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:01 AM
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Question Missed that... ??

.

I can't find the post re cryptorchid / 1 testis not in scrotum.
But if that's accurate [he has 1 descended & 1 in his abdomen], i would def ask the breeder for some money back!
AND - do not let them persuade U to "give him testosterone" to make the testis come down. :crazy:


true story:
I had a previous client in Va Beach, VA, whose son bought a "working line" GSD.
[He was shipped by air from Sapphire Kennels, Montana - & cost north of $1,200 in early 2004.]

To say that they were unprepared for his temp, energy, land-shark full-force bites, & more, is the understatement of the decade, at least; within days of the pup's arrival, his mother's arms looked as if she'd slept on blackberry canes every night, & had thrashed when she had bad dreams - deep scratches & punctures all over, from fingertips to well-above her elbows, WITH BRUISES from the bite-pressure.
They'd had pet line GSDs all her adult life - this pup was off the charts.
He was also cryptorchid - & the 22-YO "boy" who still lived at home & worked PT, was more upset by the missing testis than by living with the k9 buzzsaw he'd bought.

The breeder persuaded them both that the testis would drop if the pup was given testosterone - I have no idea why this was so crucial to the young male owner, as they dog wasn't meant to be bred in any case, but he was determined his dog would be 'normal'.
They gave him enuf that he behaved as if he was in early puberty by 12-WO - humping, turfy, threat-barks at strangers passing their house on the street, leg-lifting, the works.
When i met him, one of the 1st suggestions i made was to get him desexed ASAP, not knowing at that time about the undescended testis nor the ongoing administration of testosterone "therapy" in a then-10-WO pup.

The testis never came down, but the pup's behavior continued to deteriorate - The young "man" had never trained any dog B4, he'd just lived with a series of nice biddable friendly pet-GSDs that his mum trained.

The last time i saw the dog, he was 9-MO & we met while i was walking the bike path - the dog looked as if he was undecided about biting me, & the young "man" was holding him to the outside of the path in a white-knuckled, 2-handed grip.
If anyone in Va Beach had been killed by a dog between 2004 & 2016, i'd have laid money it would be that GSD. Bad sale; wrong dog type, wrong home, wrong everything.
______________________________________


Spelunking to find the missing testis isn't that complex, the vet has to locate it amid the larger organs - if he's cryptorchid, i'd get him snipped sooner rather than later. The abdominal testis can strangulate, it's very likely to become cancerous, & it's highly, highly heritable in the M line of his [hopefully not planned] descendants.
Any accidental matings would only pass it along.


cached copy of a PDF from UC-Davis vet college:
What You Need to Know About Cryptorchidism

- terry

.
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:20 PM
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RE: Probiotic

Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
.

2 things i thot of can help him feel better now, & function better later / lifelong:
- hi-potency probiotics
- Digestive enzymes

Probiotics help build his gut-flora back up; the bad microbes need to be outnumbered by the nice commensals.
Digestive enzymes cannot be stored; they're given with every meal, to help break food down so he absorbs nutrients better.
Basically, same amt of food goes in, but fewer nutrients are "thrown away".

RenewLife is a very high-quality U-S made brand.



https://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-f...robiotics.html

https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/rene...psules/rw-7022

- terry

.
Thanks for this, Terry. The vet gave him a blister pack of probiotic (and a paste) for the short-term and, after your post, I got some more of the capsules/blister pack that I put in his food. He was doing much better after a few days of the upset stomach, but it looked quite terrible, for sure.

A question about probiotics as I've been trying to read up on them more since reading your post and ordering another month's supply. With regard to RenewLife, etc., do you find these are better for dogs than those (allegedly) formulated for dogs? I know how the supplement industry can be for humans, and I question almost everything, but had read that at least some probiotics for humans might not survive the digestive system of dogs long enough to become effective, and that some others might actually have too high a number of bacteria and/or too many species, causing unnecessary competition. But, again, its a supplement industry, and all it takes is going into a health food store to hear why a person absolutely needs to buy a $70 bottle of multi vitamins instead of the $10 bottle at the grocery store.

I'd also noticed many doctors recommend (humans) taking a probiotic daily, whereas some label warnings state intended for intermittent use. Others caution daily use for chronic ailments only. Do you have thoughts on daily use of probiotics for dogs?

I'd read that either probiotics or digestive enzymes might help with skin conditions. Pup seems to be doing a fair bit of scratching and biting, both before and after the puppy food transition. I'd found a flea on him, and the vet said to give him his next flea med dose (NexGuard), which was quite early. I haven't seen another flea but he's still scratching and biting almost as badly. During his vaccine booster the other day the vet didn't see any creepy-crawlies either, but didn't think much of the scratching/biting and said in her opinion, when pups are growing, they often seem to be a bit scratchy. idk though. Tervs are prone to skin allergies, as I recall. Maybe a combo of digestive enzymes with the probiotic will help.
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:42 PM
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On the descent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
.

I can't find the post re cryptorchid / 1 testis not in scrotum.
But if that's accurate [he has 1 descended & 1 in his abdomen], i would def ask the breeder for some money back!
AND - do not let them persuade U to "give him testosterone" to make the testis come down. :crazy:


true story:
I had a previous client in Va Beach, VA, whose son bought a "working line" GSD....
________________________


Spelunking to find the missing testis isn't that complex, the vet has to locate it amid the larger organs - if he's cryptorchid, i'd get him snipped sooner rather than later. The abdominal testis can strangulate, it's very likely to become cancerous, & it's highly, highly heritable in the M line of his [hopefully not planned] descendants.
Any accidental matings would only pass it along.


cached copy of a PDF from UC-Davis vet college:
What You Need to Know About Cryptorchidism

- terry

.
Frightening story about the testosterone side-effects! I'd read that there was "anecdotal" evidence it could be used to help them descend, and had read suggestion that testosterone issues could be behind them not descending, but nothing convincing.

So, not long after these thoughtful replies about cryptorchidism were posted (I saw them from my phone but was slow to get on my laptop to reply, sorry!), I was able to see what appeared to be his testes along his shaft, maybe 2/3 of the way down. Both were there, but they were not always visible--usually visible when lying on his back, maybe relaxing or maybe during belly rubs, I can't recall. The other day the vet said she did palpitate them. Rather, this was in the notes, when I asked the vet tech (a friend) about neuter costs and complexities with retained testicles. Of course, I don't know if the now-sometimes-visible rocks are anything to feel positive about. Ultimately, I don't plan on breeding him anyway, but I prefer him to have as few complications and health risks as possible.
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:44 PM
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Also, as a general update, the little guy is consistently gaining weight. He's still "small" of course, weighing at the vets at 13.3 lbs on Monday, at about 11 1/2 weeks of age, but appx. doubling his weight of 6.8 lbs from his first vet weigh-in from exactly 3 weeks prior. Vet said she could stand to see a little more meat/weight (?) on him, feeling his ribs, which I was glad to hear because I thought he was looking a bit round though I could see his waistline still. I'm feeding him Orijen large puppy breed, which, when I follow directions, has significantly fewer calories and significantly less volume than the TOTW his breeder was feeding him. The vet said to feed him as a 10 lbs dog when he was 7 lbs (irrespective to dog food brand), and when he was 10 lbs I was feeding him a fair bit more than the 10 lbs portion. It's difficult to determine these things--just gotta feel the ribs, I guess, but given this is a protein-dense kibble diet, I hope it's safe to up the ante on. One things for sure, he's voracious! He eats out of a puzzle game, usually, and in no time is looking at me like "really, that's all you've got for me?!" Then he tries to scavenge, looking for bits of dropped cat food or, if lucky, human crumbs. This excludes kibble used as training during the day. I don't really do "treats" per se, at least not regularly.
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:53 PM
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Parvo/Vet

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Originally Posted by Tuckersmom View Post
Did the vet check your pup for Parvo? Diarrhea and listlessness are signs associated with Parvo. If his immune system is down due to the Giardia, he could have picked up another virus of some type.
You know, I thought they would have with the initial fecal test. When I read your question, I called the vet to ask what he was tested for--nope, just the typical parasite tests. I'm not sure why the vet (not the vet he's beginning to see regularly, but whatever vet was available during an urgency call) didn't consider parvo instead of only suggesting treating the diarrhea (though, as the vet pointed out, the Flagyl treats diarrhea, thus the vet suspecting something else) or possibly having an obstruction from ingesting something. But sure enough, the X-Rays showed several gravel-like objects in at least two different spots in his tract. I have since found him eating a small pebble in the living room--a pebble about the size that lodges in one's shoe tread. But I also caught he trying to root out isolated, albeit tiny pieces of kitty litter at in my mom's carpet when we visited last, so there's no telling which it was. Whatever it was, it seems to have passed through his system, thankfully. Still concerned that Parvo wasn't an immediate suspect.

Thank you for your trouble-shooting!
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