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Those who made the switch...

5K views 24 replies 13 participants last post by  Pasarella 
#1 ·
I'm interested in hearing your experiences changing from aversive training to PR... what made you change? What was your biggest challenge? What advice do you have for people wanting to make the switch?

As I've mentioned before, I grew up with aversive methods and I'm learning about PR. I want to use PR when training Aspen so I like hearing from people who have 'been in my shoes'. :)
 
#2 ·
For me it was a somewhat gradual shift in thinking. The biggest push, mentally, was when I got my JRT. When he was about five months old I put a prong collar on him to teach him to heel. He froze and wouldn't move when the collar tightened. I'd never had that experience with the dozens of dogs I'd trained using a prong. I wasn't ignorant about positive reinforcement at that point. I have always used it when training but I also used aversive methods. Seeing my young feisty little terrier freeze with a look of abject fear on his face slapped me in the face.

At that point, I was still training retrievers though not as actively as I had been. I was using a shock collar for advanced training and on other aspects of retriever training. I had also around that time joined a dog forum that had several very educated trainers who were actively promoting force free training. They shared many articles and studies about the use of punishment and fallout. I realized that some behaviors ( and some were very subtle) I was seeing were indeed the result of my methods. Oh and I never put a prong collar back on my JRT after that first time.

I kept mulling over my methods which were the methods almost everyone in my dog world used at that time. The more I read on the subject the more convinced I was that I had to abandon using aversive methods if I wanted to consider myself a humane trainer. To this day, I am still learning about how dogs and all animals learn.

Punishment does work. All animals are wired to respond to pain with avoidance. So you can stop behaviors you don't want using punishment. Where it often breaks down is that for the average dog owner and for many trainers, punishment is not delivered correctly and with enough pain/force to effect a result that is long lasting. The use of pain to stop behavior may be more efficient in the animal world but at what cost to our relationship with our dogs?

Saw this article today on FB. Very timely,eh?

Acts of punishment are stronger than rewards | Smart Animal Training Systems...
 
#3 ·
@Grabby - thanks! I also grew up training retrievers with my dad. We did field trials and hunt tests so I am all too familiar with those methods. I agree, they do work. However, when I got Aspen, I decided that I wanted to learn other ways of teaching her. I don't know what it was that made me think like this. I want everything that we do together to be fun. I don't want her to sit because she's going to get a smack on the bum. I taught her to sit using PR. When I ask her to sit now, she gives me the cutest little look. Her ears go up like she's saying, 'what next, mom?' I don't remember any dogs from my youth having that reaction. I want her to be as excited to work with me as I am to work with her.

Now, I read an article from a local aversive trainer who said that she tried PR on a hound mix that she had. One day they were working on off leash recall. Dog took off after a rabbit. Instinct kicked in and the dog tuned her out. Here she said that only aversive techniques would have helped because the dog didn't care what treat it was going to get, it wanted the rabbit. My first reaction to the article was that she wasn't training PR correctly.

Thanks for the article link- I'll read it in a bit. :)
 
#4 ·
I've never really had to resort to harsher punishments with any of my dogs, even when they were deemed as acceptable, I'm just not that type of person & my dogs have always been quite biddable. However, I remember when CM first came on the scene & thinking, wow! this guy is great :bashself: & for a while my husband would try to stop our dog walking ahead because that meant she was being the leader of the pack etc... :rofl: Then we discovered Victoria Stilwell & looked at each other with a kind of lightbulb moment & both said, now that makes sense!! :D. I have always used the same method of positive reinforcement with my dogs & my children, it just works!
 
#5 ·
I've never used aversive techniques or P+/R- for training. I have a distinct recollection of writing "punishment doesn't work" in my college behaviorism notebook and that, plus not having the right personality or mindset to rely on force, pushed me toward R+ when we got Katie. Admittedly, many of my memories from that era are fuzzy, so I don't have context for the notation. :p

The Crossover Trainer is a good blog by someone who has made the switch. I enjoy reading it and always learn something new from Ines.
 
#7 ·
I mostly trained using positive reinforcement in the beginning and I really wish I would've found this forum when Jayne was a puppy before I took an obedience class.

My mom's friend who everyone (including me at the time, I've probably talked about her before) considered "the dog guru" got a puppy a week after us and started taking classes with a certain trainer. I decided to take the class with them and he recommended prong collars. He pitched them as safe and humane, and who was I, a 16 year old first time dog owner, to question it? I used it with Jayne, she didn't seem to mind at all and it helped her walk better, so I didn't think anything of it.

The first thing that made me question the ethics of the prong was when the trainer put one on an adult great dane in the class. He put it on with the prongs facing outwards, not even pinching, and the dane got so nervous he pooped EVERYWHERE. It was so shocking (as you can imagine) and I didn't expect a dog to react like that to the collar. It made me question it a little, but I wasn't completely sold, unfortunately.

It wasn't until I applied to admin a blog (that I actually admin now) that I loved that I had my first wake up call. They said that my training philosophy was outdated and hurting my dog. Of course I was mad and offended because I would NEVER hurt Jayne.

Eventually I started doing research and I gradually changed my views one thing at a time. The dominance went first, then the prong, then the scolding. This is when I began to feel unwelcome and, frankly, disrespected in a certain beagle forum I frequented because of my newfound training philosophy and I found this place.
 
#10 ·
Aversive training just doesn't mesh with me personality wise. I don't like using force to get my dog to do what I want, but when I took my terrier mix to training class the instructor used a mix of +R and +P. She taught us leash pops and when a fellow student asked how to get her little dog to stop barking told then to squirt some lemon juice in the dogs mouth. Leash pops had little effect on my dog, as did most punishments. I also quickly figured out that any punishment that did work he'd sooner or later start to ignore so I had to up the force of the punishment. In other words it was a vicious cycle. I stumbled on what did work for us +R and -P, I just didn't know what it was called back then and we lived in relative harmony except for a few problems like resource guarding and fixation.

Then CM came on the t.v and he seemed the answer for the problems I was still having, so I started trying to claim the bone, insisting that my dogs walk behind me, etc but it never really felt right for some reason. Victoria Stillwell next came out and she made more sense then CM, her methods fit more with what I instinctively did when working with my dogs. After that I found DF, and it all fell into place. I learned about suppressing behavior, what fallout was, how dogs shutdown. I learned why different methods worked, and why I had such success when I used what I learned was +R -P, and why I always had trouble when I used a combo of +R +P.
 
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#12 ·
I was wondering if people used them in conjunction. Thanks @Rain!
THere's a certain breed of trainer calling themselves "balanced" who say things like "Why wouldn't you use every trick in your bag?" and "All dogs are different" and "Treats are fine for teaching a sit, but when your 100 lb shepherd is going after grandma, what's the treat going to do then?"

All of that is a serious misunderstanding of how PR+ training works. You don't use every trick in the bag because not every trick is right or fair to use. All dogs are different, but that doesn't matter when it comes to how training works. As for the last one, I'd tackle the dog. Duh.

I'm lucky. My grandfather used "traditional" force free methods on his Dobies. (Yeah, the whole "hurt 'em till they give in and obey" style isn't as old as some people think.) They were wonderfully behaved dogs. He taught my mom, she taught me. I've seen it work my whole life. Now I know the science behind it.
 
#13 ·
I didn't so much switch entirely. When I first got Koda I was already very involved with horses (as gentle as possible, but pressure/release is a common way of training horses since you need to use your legs as cues, the goal to eventually be very gentle and subtle in your movement). I also had a scardey cat bunny and cat. The bunny I had trained with +R without noticing it-I gave her LOTS of time to explore me before she felt comfortable with petting and the like. She also learned 'stand on hinds legs' on cue for treats :) There simply isn't any other way to treat a bunny unless you want to be nipped at or ran away from. So it was never 100% new.

When I got Koda, the friend I had recruited to help me out is definitely and aversive trainer-and had gone to the police dog school in my city, which is highly recommended, with at least 4-5 dogs. His wife also had a service dog (who wasn't the greatest behaved but service dogs are in short supply, and because they had dogs before they went for it). At the time I just wanted someone to lean on a bit when I got frustrated or really stuck, but even then I mostly did my own research.

We used a choke collar for a while. It 'helped', but didn't solve the problem. I hated using it the entire time, so I started looking for other options.Then I found this forum. I lurked for a bit to get a feel for everyone but it wasn't until later that I actually read all the stickies for real. Those things are long!! Not far after, Koda got attacked at the park, and started showing signs of reactivity. I could very obviously empathize, so we looked up EVERYTHING. I pretty much stopped the rest of my life for a week and did nothing but research and goof off with Koda.

I was also fortunate enough to have been recommended a +R training school, so that helped me build confidence in what I was doing and with timing. Koda was a super star for the majority of it despite a ton of issues in my life, which helped.

It's really a gradual switch in thinking. You don't realize how much you love +R until you've done a lot of it. It wasn't until way later when we started teaching FUN things instead of basic manners and proofing that I really appreciated how much we could do in a short period of time. Most friends were impressed with how well Koda transformed from crazy dog to super well behaved in what felt like to them, overnight.

Dominance training is sooooo ingrained into people threw media, though. It's a lot easier to see a method that isn't working, than a theory that isn't working, when you can place your views over top. I didn't necessarily think I had to be alpha-but I did think I needed to be a strong leader. What 'strong leader' meant to me over time changed. I honestly did think dogs lived in packs if they were to be left alone-because they're SO social with us, that sort of made sense. I thought the whole 'I am alpha man I must dominate everything' attitude was very outdated and against anything I believed in for equal rights, but I still invested in things that were related because the whole system was disconnected.
 
#15 ·
That's pretty much what happened, but to start with they can really be overwhelming. I know that giving people a resource to read or video is nice but I felt like they were the death of me at the time. I think it might help if we made a concise sticky with the quadrants, calming signals, and the like? So not all the resources we have, but an intro on each for newcomers? @crock?
 
#18 ·
@Rain, it's interesting that you mentioned your personality is such that using force and punishment goes against your nature. I am the same way. I wish I had listened more to that inner voice when I was being mentored and trained in retriever training. I never felt very confident as a trainer back then. I thought it was my lack of skills and experience but it was more likely that I wasn't confident with the methods. Not to mention, I am not a very competitive person so the goal was never as valuable to me as the process. Another lesson in listening to your conscience above any advice, no matter how much more experience or success another person has had using methods that make you uncomfortable.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Champ. Up until him, I had immersed myself in upland hunting training (primarily +P and -R) and CM crap, mixed with some crude/unstudied rewards. I didn't have the stomach for a lot of the more intense methods, but yeah, I did more than enough that I feel guilty about now. Fortunately, we had sense enough to treat puppies totally differently, so we didn't screw up the litters we'd raised.

It was clear our approach to adult dogs was not going to work for Champ as he matured, and I very skeptically decided to try marker training, which I had originally read about on Leerburg's site--figured since this old school trainer had given this 'silly pet method' a try, what could it hurt. When I saw how effective and fun it was, I was pretty happy to leave the old stuff behind and continue to educate myself.

Honestly, I have no intention of ever going to a "balanced approach." Yes, I recognize that all four quadrants are effective at changing behavior, but I don't think using all four is automatically warranted, especially when focusing on PR can achieve so much. I really like the Humane Hierarchy principle. Another guideline is LIMA--least invasive, minimally aversive, although I feel like that gives a less comprehensive roadmap. Both of these hold the trainer accountable to be creative and critical thinkers.

Anyways, the most difficult thing for me has been patience. I'm not blaming the actual training methods I used to use for struggling with this because I realize that all trainers, despite values and methods, should always be acting patiently and with clear thinking. However, resisting making that verbal correction or doing that leash tug is hard, when so easily available, is hard and takes self-discipline for sure!

Another thing is holding myself accountable (and trusting the system) when I am the only one in my family trying to focus on PR. Normally, this isn't an issue because I live alone, but when I go visit, it becomes a notable point of contention. I did actually go to an e-collar to train Elsie to stay on my parents' property, which was no big deal to anyone but me--I could explain the reasons if anyone is interested--but what I want to emphasize is this: I felt like I was cheating and hypocritical (I was), I felt lousy (as I'm sure Elsie did), I do wish I'd have tried the methods I recommend now (I was aware of these of course with Elsie, but I didn't have enough faith given her history), I did absolutely, despite using it as judiciously and correctly as I could, have fallout, and without a physical barrier (ie their hydro gates open), all bets are still off <--so I should take this opp to train her with pr again. My point is, it's easy to revert for those things you have built up in your head to actually "needing" it, and I'd encourage you to step back when you hit those walls, and consider other options (or ask here).

One of the things that drives me to 'stay positive' with all my dogs now (with Champ especially, since he is the only one with minimal experience with my old methods) is that I want to love them now and look back at them later 100% because of the amazing dogs they are/were, not poisoned by 'love mixed with guilt.' I will never be perfect and will always think about things I could have done/handled better, but it keeps me trying. A less selfish drive, of course, is the fact that I'd love for them to live without fear, discomfort, and pain as much as possible.
 
#22 ·
The hardest part for me as a dog owner converting to an all PR system is to not fall back in certain, somewhat stressful/distracting situations. Example: a birthday party we were at in my neighbourhood yesterday. Raider hunted me down in my husbands care and came to the party. Im 100% positive if it was a problem the hostess would of told me--instead her father was the issue.. Their dogs and Raider play really well together considering. The one husky cross is a bit of the jealous type when it comes to his "girlfriend", and I was keeping more an eye on the dogs than my kiddo to make sure things didn't get out of control. Well, I guess not everyone who has dogs can tell when play hasn't escalated to something serious, but long story short the father says to me "you better take your dog home. They're chasing him." "It's okay, they are playing and Raider is very capable AND aware were he's safe (they have an e-fence... raider knows those boundaries stupidly well). He can get away if he wanted." "That's not play, it's retarded." Uhm... "Excuse me.... Are you saying tag is retarded or my dog? Because my dog didn't piss on a chair with a man sitting on it, and your daughters did... Nor did my dog clear the entire table of foof AND continued to try to steal good right from under people's noses/outta their hands unlike a certain daughters dog. Anyways it pissed me off, and I barked at raider to come back to me for viciously than I intended. Raider looked at me like "what ma?? I didn't do any thing." when I grabbed his collar and led him out the gate when I simple "here, Raider. Let's go home." Would of sufficed.

I also find it hard at the moment to resist a leash yank when raider pulls exceptionally hard. I'm blaming the pain in my crotch on that one though because he used to be a harder puller, and I just went with it just fine.
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#23 ·
I changed my methods of training about 16 years ago when I had to make a choice of putting my best friend down.
The way that I had worked with him, (cannot call it training)was in a way that he was great with me, but a loaded gun to anyone else.

I had no idea that I was wrong on so many factors to point out.
Once I made the decision to train myself (by way of professional) before ever getting another dog, I realized how little I actually knew, as well as what really felt right to me.
I did not like some of the methods I used in the past, but I was an idiot for not trying to find different methods. I felt that because of the dog and its drive, I had to be an Alpha. I felt that he needed to be put in his place.
In fact, I was putting him in a place that I was trying to avoid in the first place.
if that makes sense.
 
#24 ·
It has been a gradual change of mindset. It took months to really take hold. I`ve never really "punished" dogs but the underlying mentality of "must be pack leader, assert yourself to get the dog do something" was always there.

Ella was just so .. over the place as a puppy. She`s bold and obnoxious and stubborn. A little raised voice doesnt work with her. She isnt intimidated easily. Her breed description was scary. Something in the back of my head told me that she wouldnt response well to force methods and could become aggressive. I live in a busy city and I needed her to be 100% perfect with humans. I wanted her to be comfortable wtih humans and not afraid of them. She`s part LGD. I worked HARD on socializing her with people. Always using positive methods.
 
#25 ·
I made the switch this summer.Before that I was all about dominance. Always afraid of not being the pack leader.I was doing many silly things(like eating from the dog's bowl). I always thought that alpha rolls are fine,that is just some way to make a dog calm down,CM does it all the time! Till one day I thought I need no alpha roll my dog(I tried to stop her from barking inside by shaking her by her scruff which made her attack me) and she totally freaked out.Screaming like mad,trying to get away,trying to bite,for a while I kept holding her because "obviously she was an pack leader,so now she is losing it and that is why she is acting like that",but the I noticed she doesn't look mad,she looks scared,tail tucked between her legs,and the face and all.I couldn't understand that and she didn't stop fighting so I decided to but her in another room to relax a bit,because I was afraid that if I will just let go I will lose my "pack leader status" because she would have won the fight,besides what if she decides to go after me and bites me. Then I started to study... Looking up everything about the dominance and other training methods and find PR, TV show called "It's me or the dog" and Zak George and cried for what have I done.Till that day I'm trying to use only positive methods.
The hardest part is the alpha rolling. Sometimes I still feel the need to use it as it still sits in my brain as a way to show to dog he has done something wrong.I'm trying hard to forget it,I don't want to use it to my dogs now when I know what it actually shows to the dog.
 
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