Are you a food/treat dispenser or a trainer? Do your dogs train you?

alfi

The inspiration comes from this post: Thoughts on training with food so thank you Criosphynx

Well I remember my first time trying to train a puppy Malinois together with a puppy Rottie...I was 12 years old and I have to admit really stupid!! I was laughing all the time and give them treats before they even do something!

My father had his way of training and they obeyed him everytime even with no treats at all! I was so angry...! I tried then to be patient and give treats only when done something right....but it worked only when the dogs wanted!

At the age of 17 I found that to train a dog and obey you every time with treats or not you have to do 3 simple things. 1st be the leader! 2nd be serious about orders...when you say something mean it! 3rd be their friend and teacher. I also think that the body-language is an important part of the training. Now that I have gain my dogs respect as leader-friend-teacher they obey me every sincle time. (I cannot carry treats around for so many dogs... lol)

For our new dogs I use treats randomly and only in the first few times until the dog understand the commant. After that a hug will be enough for the dog to know that he has done a good thing. (Of course my father and our personal dog trainer helped me a lot - I know I cannot explain what rules I follow training a dog because it's just that...I guess it is cause I grew up with many dogs...Ooh I feel so wird now )

*Thats a fun question isn't it?

Criosphynx

not sure if I see a question, unless you are refering to the title...looks like you are implying that people that use primary reinforcers are nothing more than treat dispensers.


these were either

A. biddable dogs of easy breeds that will work for praise only or

B. he used force, coercion, or correction so the dogs will learn to obey to avoid an aversive, not to gain a reward.


NO. Iam not a walking treat dispenser and Yes, the training game can be viewed as the dogs training us...I hate to break it to you, but that goes for praise/no treats/corrections as well...the dog is doing what it needs to to alter YOUR behavior, to either gain a reward or avoid a punisher...it all depends how you want to view it.

alfi

Yes I am refering to the title...! sorry.

No not force in any way...! For example the command "sit": he was sitting infront of the dog and put his finger up infront of the dog's nose and say "sit"...of course the dog don't know that and tries to jump or "kiss" the finger so he says "ah ah" with firm voice and raise his hand a bit so the dog sits then give the dog some hug and play and then suddenly he says "sit" and if the dog sits then play again if not say "ah ah... sit" if it does play again if not turn his back and even leave the room if it doesn't work. Then come back again and do the same....I hope I explained that in away you understand...oh god I am not good with words

Criosphynx

I understand now..thank you for the clarification.

you are refering to praise only training...nothing wrong with it.

BUT its often slower than training with food IMO...it doesn't work on all dogs/breeds...especially primative breeds...and will not always create a reliable behavior...it also is not as effective (or effective at all) in a distracting situation.

by the way the "ah ah" can be viewed as a correction to the dog...so the dog is still complying to avoid som'thing it doesn't like

TashaHope

Ha, that's an interesting way to think about it.

alfi

*And yes I think my dogs trained me a lot ... and make me have a schedule in my life... I do not think that Mals and Rotties are easy breeds especially when we are talking about dominant working lines.
Maybe it is because they won't gain a reward ... or it is that "the human" holds the resources (like food, playtime, toys etc) (same thing for me) and I also think that it is because he doesn't give a command for fun or game but only when he need to. (behavior corrections are always needed I think)

**(I am really sorry if do not explain things correct...it is cause I am working at the same time and have look after the animals)

Criosphynx

mals are drivey..but actually are easy to train(provided you know what you are doing)...they aren't chosen for police work because they are hard to train.

I know of a respected rot breeder who competes with her dogs (rather successfully I may add) with using only PR in her training...

the links and convo in this thread may interest you.


I can't disagree with you more

alfi

Thanks for the thread Criosphynx very informative indeed! many things I didn't know about. Thanks a lot!

by "behavior corrections" I mean anything used to correct the dog when done something wrong...even the "ah ah" when the dog tries to eat my table!
I can see that you define "behavior corrections" other way?!

Yes Mals are very trainable I must say...but very dominant and thinkers of their own

**What is the PR in training? Possitive Reinfor i guess?? (I am very happy to hear that PR is used by a breeder who competes!! I am a fan of PR even though many people I know are not)

by the way I get the point of the word "dominance" in training...but many people use it to reffer to these "training issues"

Criosphynx

I think we have a small language/term barrier, so bare with me and I'll bare with you

the way of thinking I adhere to is that if the dog gives an incorrect response the dog is not clear on what you want. Why would a dog give an incorrect response if there is a punishment history? It makes no sense.


the "ah ah" you are using can be many things, an interupter, a correction, or a no reward marker (NRM) without seeing it in context its hard to say how you are using it....though I find MOST people are inadvertantly using it as a verbal correction, as in "if you continue som'thing aversive will happen"

what happens if your dog ignores your "ah ah"?

we define it the same Iam sure, BUT when the word corrections is used...the majority of the time people are refering to physical corrections...so that tends to be what I think people mean unless they specify.

would you care to elaborate on what you mean by this?

alfi

haha I think I am the one who says things wrong...I feel like I cannot write down what I mean...maybe because of the cows near me...so excuse me please.

Ok when the dog ignores the "ah ah" I am just calling his/her name and command sit or come. I would say I use the "ah ah" as an interupter or "bad noise" for the dog's ears...if I can say that.

By trainable I mean that someone has the ability to learn many different things quite fast or understand a command and be able to repeat it at the next moment asked or something like that...

By dominant I mean exercising control of things or situations

**and now is the time to admit that living in UK for 3 years haven't improved my english a lot...lol