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Criosphynx

yes, your right, avoidance training is meant to use one, very memorable stim.


For proofing, it can depend, like I said, you still risk fallout, many dogs, even on the lowest stims, still throw stress signs, you can also risk them associating the stim with you, or anyone else present. I have also seen and heard of dogs, that found even the lowest stim extremely scary/aversive...and have heard of dogs even spooking and running off.

the thing is, since the dog has to be taught what the collar is/stims mean, there is time involved there...so in the end, there may not be as much time saved using the collar, as one may think...

If you follow learning theory, basically, if a dog blows you off, its for one of two reasons.

A. Doesn't understand the command, or bad delivery of command (don't can't hear you, you fudge up the signal ect)
B. Its not worth it to the dog to obey the command


so if you believe in those principles, then the real answer for a dog that blows off a recall is the dog just needs more training with PR, for more contexts/distractions...

otherwise the stim just enforces "b"....but with punishment, not rewards

Tess

Yes, I think I agree with you overall, and that has been my experience for the most part. For sure Josey suffered fall out and he was definitely showing stress signs. So he is a case in point. But like I said, the collar was used on him too much, and in ways he found confusing.

It took so little with Tess, probably she only wore the collar for a couple of months while on our "hunts" and I only needed to use it a few times early on. It could be that I never really needed to use it in the first place... that her recall was maturing anyway, as I find it often does as a dog grows up.

My goal was never to save time, it was because I found, for the first time in my life-with-dogs, that these real hunting dogs, from hunting lines, have a whole other level of drive that I could not compete with, no matter how many drills we did with the tastiest of treats. Its hard to describe, and I'm not trying to make "breed specific behavioral excuses"... but for sure this type of dog is a level different for me. The "old time trainers" used to use all sorts of terrible methods to put the fear of God (or man) in their dogs to get a reliable recall, including things like chasing down the dog and whipping it or other barbarous and cruel treatment, if it did not come.

When you think about it, field dogs like setters have been bred to be independent, out front looking for birds. Its a whole different mindset from a herding or retrieving breed who's focus is more towards the handler. I've had border collies too, and I cannot imagine ever considering an e-collar for one of them... all they do is look back at you and ask "what's next?" Setters are not like that. Don't get me wrong, they are completely sweet and affectionate, and in a non-stimulating environment they are very cooperative and trainable. But put them in a field with birds or other game, and don't expect them to be able to turn away and do your bidding on a dime. Their job, what makes them "good hunters" is total focus and obsession hunting, so they can seek, then hold that point for minutes on end without moving.

I don't know if I would go through the e-collar recall training with the next young setter or not. It would probably depend on how he/she progressed and if I felt is was needed for safety. One thing that I find over and over, is as dogs mature, they seem to settle and be less distracted by world stimuli, and therefore they come much better. I think they just become more cooperative too, as you work with them over time. At least that has been my experience with setters.

Well one more thing. We had "regular" english setters before these field dogs, and they were much more "normal" about recall training and I never had trouble teaching them and did not ever consider an e-collar.

Criosphynx

ah but you see, all this means is you need to think outside the box! I used treats, but mostly I used premack, and life rewards for recall...I also used the "look at that game" to do away with fixations. Most people try to get rid of fixations, but breaking the dogs attention, which only does so much (or nothing), I use counter conditioning and shaping, to shape the dogs reaction away from fixation...so that the object/animal becomes interesting, but novel I can elaborate if you like

I have a Jrt/sheltie mix, that I can recall off a fleeing rabbit

Premack's principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With premack, the chasing of the rabbit (to use my example) is actually used AS a reward.


sorry so short, Iam working and have to pop away again.

Tess

I am VERY interested, and VERY impressed w/ your JRT!
Well, I've seen that video of you with Chilli, so I know you really know what you are doing!

But really I don't want to disturb your work! Maybe you have an article or another thread to send me to some time, that explains how you accomplish this sort of thing... save you time writing it all out for this newbie!

Criosphynx

Well, here is a good article on proofing

Gaining relevance through distraction training | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

you may have to create an account to read it. Basically, if you do these hierarchies, and do them correctly, you can proof anything without punishment. You can teach a dog to ignore thrown hotdogs and fleeing squirrels...it just must be done right.

So in pertaining to recall, I proof with a long lead on at first in case I move too fast, for the rabbits, I also teach a cue to look at the rabbits (look at that) and also a release to chase them (premack).


here is an article on "look at that"

Look at That! A Counterintuitive Approach to Dealing with Reactive Dogs Dog Training for Dog Lovers Blog

its a game used for reactive dogs, but it can be tweeked for anything that is a trigger for behavior...if you click the dog for seeing game, but not chasing, you can create a dog that sees the game, looks at you, and then you can release or not release to chase the game...the trigger becomes a "watch me" cue...you don't have to say a word

Its all about Triggers, if you can desesitize the dog to triggers, and then put access to rewards on cue, and let the dog live a little by letting them have it occasionally, only when you say so...voila' rock solid recall....but its ALOT of variables, methods being used at once...it can get complicated...you have to also manage the dog until the training is there.

Tess

Crio, thank you for all that. I have a LOT of reading and studying to do now! Its really interesting to find out there are these clever ways to work with a dog's psychology!

Thank you!