Purely positive training? ;)

**Criosphynx** · 01-13-2010, 11:59 PM

A recent discussion on another forum prompted me to think about this...

the question that intriqued me is this one...and I'll ask it of all of you now

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is realistic to think that we can train with all positive and dog friendly methods?

my answer was, basically...yes and no..depends on who WE are...if we means the whole world of dog owners....it is possible yes, realistic no. As in the average persons skill and knowledge to train this way will generally be lacking and most training clients are going to be a bit impatient. Also there are people out there that own dogs for all the wrong reasons

for example...dog is trash digging....a highly rewarding behavior...lets say hes been doing this...oh ten years now...as the family just kind of put up with it....

Now lets say mom remarries...this behavior bugs the HELL out of the new dad...he tries to catch the dog in the act, but hes often not quick enough...plus mom isn't helping him catch the dog when hes not there, as the behavior doesn't bother her.

So dad makes an ultimatum. Dog learns to stop or dog goes....so they hire a trainer...the trainer goes into management and how to reward the dog for ignoring the trash etc etc....so mom and dad try this for about a week with bad timing (as timing is a learned and praticed skill) and then get lax again...behavior returns. To add to it lets just say this particular dog is not very food or toy motivated. They contact trainer as they are very disapointed and frustrated and the trainer refuses to use P+ because they don't believe in using corrections at all...frustrated the dog is taken to the pound...

thats may sound silly...but IME people give up dogs for really really stupid reasons, just like the story above all the time.. They are also very timeline oriented (this has a week to fix or iam done!) and money oriented (That trainer was $100 and hour! I can't afford to have them back, and their advice didn't work anyways!) so did the trainer, in this situation, with these clients hurt or help the dog?

karen pryors view on it

The Myth of "Purely Positive" | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

so I guess the point Iam asking/making is is the average dog owner dedicated and patient enough to not use corrections ever? Even if that means it will take longer and be more work som'times to go a positive route?

IME no, people want "results" now.

thoughts?

Mikey · 01-14-2010, 12:15 AM

Crio great topic!!

I have a lot of experience both hands on training animals and also some formal courses I took in Uni (CV: Brain & Behavior 275, Principles of Behavior 281, Animal Communications Grad level, Approaches to behavior 381, Genetics & Behavior 372, Principles of learning 381) and I think I have a pretty solid understaning.

However-Crio-you really changed my mind on aversives and corections...Like totally.

Is it realistic? No-but not because it can't be done. I think it's the same reason people can't drive properly-they just don't care to do things RIGHT.

Actually I totally believe now-that corrections and aversives are not needed, and it may take longer-but I think the bond and love and trust of your dog is more important. I mean that's why we get dogs right? They love us-so I think we are only doing right by them to not correct...I mean we've been over it lots-they aren't TRYING to be jerks-(kids do -dogs dont) they just don't know better and that's our fault not theirs.

Your fault for my thoughts here Crio

Thank you for that

**Criosphynx** · 01-14-2010, 12:24 AM

(is there a blushing smiley?)

once upon a time I wanted a dog for all the wrong reasons. I wanted the behaviors i wanted, and wanted the behaviors I didn't want gone. Now.

I moved past that..relationship is priority to me now...but I must say alot of people in this world haven't, and never will, so the moral question becomes do you help these people get rid of a behavior to keep their dogs even if its not som'thing you would use on your own dogs?

I wonder often, how PP trainers feel about rattlesnake avoidance training....where the dog is stim'd wearing an ecollar at a high level to teach avoidance of the snake

**fawkese1** · 01-14-2010, 01:00 AM

oh...this is a great one crio...i've been thinking about this a lot myself...

first...to quote the provided link:

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First, the term implies that clicker trainers use no aversives. Extinction and negative punishment are both used by clicker trainers, and BOTH are aversive. Extinction is every bit as aversive as punishment, sometimes even more so. So even trainers who try to avoid negative punishment still have an aversive element to their training if they're using extinction. All aversives are not created equal. Some are mild and some are severe. Whether the aversive is due to something being added, something being removed, or something just not paying off does not determine the severity of the consequence.

one of my biggest challenges with clover is his over-the-top greetings... due in part to him having SA...anyway, the best thing that i've found is to simply walk away/turn away/not enter the room when he is completely beside himself and wait him out, when he is calm we can greet... it has made a big difference in his overall behavior, but this is a punishment. just because i am not inflicting pain or intimidating him, doesn't mean that it isn't punishment.

imo tho, it is a very effective communication of consequence w/o inflicting pain or using intimidation...

i've said before that i have used corrections and that i don't think they are inherently bad/wrong to use, but no matter what method you use, it really only counts if the dog "get's it" ie-he understands that the punishment was a result of a particular behavior and the punishment is sufficient motivation for the dog to stop doing whatever the unwanted behavior was. or if you don't use corrections, you are consistent in training the appropriate/alternative behaviors and finding techniques that help the dog to understand

for the average person tho, they often think they have to punish their dog to keep him in his place or something like that...and they think the dog will understand what they are punishing him for which often seems to have some link to the dog's moral understanding of the situation. "he knows he isn't supposed to do that" and so, the dog "deserves" to be punished. usually the timing of the punishment is off, and the dog has no idea of what he was doing that caused the punishment, in fact the dog probably doesn't even connect/try to connect the punishment to any of his behavior at all and just wants the punishment to stop.

also the punishment has to be strong enough and consistent enough to work this way, and again, this usually isn't the case, especially since dogs vary so much in what they will react to (for some dogs a harsh voice is more then enough punishment, and for others you could hit 'em with a brick and they would still happily wag their tail at you)

people's understanding of what a dog's actual behavior is varies so much...here's a good one...2 days ago, my neighbor came over for a minute...it was night time and clover gets upset with visitors more at night... she happened to be wearing a hood. when she came in she greeted him bent over so he could see her face and all was well... then she walked to the counter where a bucket of treats is always sitting and started telling a story and waving her arms... clover looked up at her from this different angle and started barking...it was definitely his "uh oh stranger danger" bark... her reaction "clover i'm not trying to take your food" i asked her to take her hood off, and she proceeded to argue that it must be the food cuz clover already knew she was there. he's never barked at her before when she was standing near the food that is always there, nor has he barked at anyone else for it, and i've never witnessed him guarding any food from humans (not that he never will, just isn't a normal thing for him), but he has barked at people wearing hoods before, and people who visit at night... not to mention the fact that when people come over they give him food from that exact bucket and he usually sits near the counter waiting for it, rather then stands on the other side of the room from them... anyway, if he were her dog she likely would have given him a correction of some sort for guarding his food (as she sort of did anyway)... and she was absolutely convinced of what his behavior was....to her it was completely obvious...

oh yeah, and there are some things that i just don't think corrections could possibly ever teach...again, using clover as an example... i've only recently had success with crating him. it has taken much patience, many crate games, a new/different crate style, and lots of treats to get this far, but i think that if i'd thrown any sort of correction in the mix, it would not have happened... how can you punish a dog being upset by something that he already finds aversive???

anyway... i've been going on for a bit... but one last thing... since i have such a hard time with not correcting him, and others apparently do too, i've started conditioning him to not get upset by things... like "bad dog" now, no matter what tone of voice i say it in, he comes over and sits in front of me wagging his tail...oh and like the fake beatings i've mentioned before, i can now actually strike him just about anywhere and yell at him and he just wags his tail at me... so hopefully when we humans do what seems to come so naturally to us, he won't be too upset by it...

okay...sorry to go on for so long

**fawkese1** · 01-14-2010, 01:11 AM

oh gosh, i went on for so long, on my own tangent, i failed to really make a point relevant to the question...
i don't really think that many people can avoid correcting... it seems to be so ingrained in them. it is cultural too...
patricia mcconnell, jean donaldson, and karen pryor (last 3 books i read

)all touch on it... that is sort of something that most humans learn to do, and it takes quite a bit for them to unlearn it... you see it all over...the laws that are passed, the way we treat our children, the way employers treat employees, teachers treat students...
they offer what they think are rewards and punishments... they do not offer tools to control your own consequences (a more apt focus for training..imo)

i do hear more and more people wanting to avoid inflicting pain or intimidating their dogs tho...that is hopeful...

Mikey · 01-14-2010, 01:18 AM

This obviously isn't the point of the convo but Fawkese I have to share what we did with Mandy...she did the over over over the top greeting-many times -hurting-umn-my boyfriends in places...soo
Anyways what I did-and it only took a few times-I did the same with Mikey (success-I can walk into either home and both dogs sit and wait patiently while I take my shoes off) is just come in and completely ignore-no eye contact-I even looked up and just pretended they weren't there. The second they sat I poured over them with pets-of course causing them to jump =so I turned and ignored. Seriously worked sooo quickly

Mandy didn't transfer-she jumps on most people but not me or Dave (he knows the trick too) but Mikey did and he doesn't jump on visitors

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(is there a blushing smiley?)

Blush away woman!! Takes a LOT of hard evidence and good arguments to change my stubborn mind

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i've said before that i have used corrections and that i don't think they are inherently bad/wrong to use, but no matter what method you use, it really only counts if the dog "get's it" ie-he understands that the punishment was a result of a particular behavior and the punishment is sufficient motivation for the dog to stop doing whatever the unwanted behavior was. or if you don't use corrections, you are consistent in training the appropriate/alternative behaviors and finding techniques that help the dog to understand

I agree-sometimes and used properly corrections or aversives can be fine

BUT I just-b/c of Crio-don't use them at all and I've found that's just as fast. Also Mikey is extremely anxious and a big pleaser-so I really don't need to. Just telling him 'good boy' equals ham in Mandy's world. I think-the dog is what matters-like what works with them. AND that the person doing it knows what they are doing too.

Sooo many people hit with books and newspaper-and the dogs don't get it. And rubbing their nose in poop-awful! And they just don't work the majority of the time... I know your not doing that thou fawks-not implying that at all

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for the average person tho, they often think they have to punish their dog to keep him in his place or something like that...and they think the dog will understand what they are punishing him for which often seems to have some link to the dog's moral understanding of the situation. "he knows he isn't supposed to do that" and so, the dog "deserves" to be punished. usually the timing of the punishment is off, and the dog has no idea of what he was doing that caused the punishment, in fact the dog probably doesn't even connect/try to connect the punishment to any of his behavior at all and just wants the punishment to stop.

also the punishment has to be strong enough and consistent enough to work this way, and again, this usually isn't the case, especially since dogs vary so much in what they will react to (for some dogs a harsh voice is more then enough punishment, and for others you could hit 'em with a brick and they would still happily wag their tail at you)

SOOO agreed. First in a lab situation-where punishment does work-it's delivered instantaneosly (Same as pr-but I won't get into that sad bag...) but also on the strenght of the punisher-for example those moms who yell and threaten their kid who is being a total brat? totally. My friend can look at her kids-and they know....it's all about what works-and too many wont' adjust for that. They just keep repeating these things-nagging in essense-and basically they are desensitizing their dog/cat/SO/kid to it..

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oh yeah, and there are some things that i just don't think corrections could possibly ever teach...again, using clover as an example... i've only recently had success with crating him. it has taken much patience, many crate games, a new/different crate style, and lots of treats to get this far, but i think that if i'd thrown any sort of correction in the mix, it would not have happened... how can you punish a dog being upset by something that he already finds aversive???

DITTO
I think the distinction your looking for is people looking to punish to teach them to do something; vs. punishing to not do something-is that right?

**fawkese1** · 01-14-2010, 01:38 AM

Quote:

This obviously isn't the point of the convo but Fawkese I have to share what we did with Mandy...she did the over over over the top greeting-many times -hurting-umn-my boyfriends in places...soo
Anyways what I did-and it only took a few times-I did the same with Mikey (success-I can walk into either home and both dogs sit and wait patiently while I take my shoes off) is just come in and completely ignore-no eye contact-I even looked up and just pretended they weren't there. The second they sat I poured over them with pets-of course causing them to jump =so I turned and ignored. Seriously worked sooo quickly

Mandy didn't transfer-she jumps on most people but not me or Dave (he knows the trick too) but Mikey did and he doesn't jump on visitors

lol... this is basically the same thing that i described doing already

it has worked for me really well...clover doesn't jump on visitors tho... only "family" and really only my sister... any tips on convincing her to do this?

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Blush away woman!! Takes a LOT of hard evidence and good arguments to change my stubborn mind

lol... i watched/read this whole thing happen....

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I agree-sometimes and used properly corrections or aversives can be fine

BUT I just-b/c of Crio-don't use them at all and I've found that's just as fast. Also Mikey is extremely anxious and a big pleaser-so I really don't need to. Just telling him 'good boy' equals ham in Mandy's world. I think-the dog is what matters-like what works with them. AND that the person doing it knows what they are doing too.

Sooo many people hit with books and newspaper-and the dogs don't get it. And rubbing their nose in poop-awful! And they just don't work the majority of the time... I know your not doing that thou fawks-not implying that at all

this is where i was going with all that...tho i think i took the scenic route... corrections are way more complicated in actual use... and thus, usually used incorrectly....

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SOOO agreed. First in a lab situation-where punishment does work-it's delivered instantaneosly (Same as pr-but I won't get into that sad bag...) but also on the strenght of the punisher-for example those moms who yell and threaten their kid who is being a total brat? totally. My friend can look at her kids-and they know....it's all about what works-and too many wont' adjust for that. They just keep repeating these things-nagging in essense-and basically they are desensitizing their dog/cat/SO/kid to it..

the bummer with stuff like this, it is so much more complicated... how can you punish your kid for anything when they are behaving that way for a huge combo of reasons... usually the same as a dog..imo...
not enough play/exercise/stimulation, they're tired and past their ability to cope with the current situation, you've never taught them what the appropriate thing to do is, and as you've pointed out, the threats just become nagging and lack any real consequence...

Quote:

DITTO
I think the distinction your looking for is people looking to punish to teach them to do something; vs. punishing to not do something-is that right?

yes...lol... like i said...i'd been thinking about this for a while, so there was a lot of stuff jumbling around in my head...sorry, i got all excited and tried to type out all of it at once

thanks for helping me clarify tho mikey

(maybe i'll send all future posts to you for editing and clarifying...lol...that way more people can understand me...

)

**Criosphynx** · 01-14-2010, 01:44 AM

yup...we are primates...and we tend to yell and flail our arms. Even occasionally when we know better

I have had more than one person say to me...

I don't care that it hurts the dog, it works and i just want the dog to stop it!

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I think the distinction your looking for is people looking to punish to teach them to do something; vs. punishing to not do something-is that right?

thats how I view it...if I wanted to end a self reinforcing behavior...FOREVER and it was not a managable behavior...and there was a timeframe and safety issue. I would use P+ and have. I can count it on one hand tho. I can also name the fallout behaviors that occured as a result...BUT the fallout behaviors were much more desireable and alterable than the original behavior.

Mikey · 01-14-2010, 02:05 AM

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lol... this is basically the same thing that i described doing already

it has worked for me really well...clover doesn't jump on visitors tho... only "family" and really only my sister... any tips on convincing her to do this?

lol I know

Just encouragement

Convincing who to do what? confuzzled me?

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yes...lol... like i said...i'd been thinking about this for a while, so there was a lot of stuff jumbling around in my head...sorry, i got all excited and tried to type out all of it at once

thanks for helping me clarify tho mikey

(maybe i'll send all future posts to you for editing and clarifying...lol...that way more people can understand me...

)

lol no need-you got there! I just wanted to make sure I got what you were saying right

**fawkese1** · 01-14-2010, 02:09 AM

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lol I know

Just encouragement

Convincing who to do what? confuzzled me?

lol...my sister...she is the only one that clover really still does this with, and she is convinced that if she just says "sit" enough times he'll magically just start doing it! i can't seem to convince her that if she just consistently ignores him for behaving this way, i'd give it 2 weeks max for him to stop completely, forever....*shrugs* i don't know how to convince her...

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lol no need-you got there! I just wanted to make sure I got what you were saying right

thanks...