poisened cues and inconsistency

**fawkese1** · 02-02-2010, 06:00 PM

ok... so i'm looking for some advice/input on this. i live with my sister and another roommate, and we have friends who come and go from my house regularly. i've tried really hard to explain to everyone what different cues mean and not to mix them up...for example "down" or "lie down" both mean to lie down, they do not mean to get off the couch (clover has recently been asking to get on the furniture, and i've been letting him now

) the cue i use for that is "off" and pointing to the floor... it is difficult to get everyone who regularly visits to understand how this works or doesn't work... there is also the issue of inconsistency... people asking him to do a behavior but not making sure that he does it... like asking him for a "down" and then telling him "good boy" when he gives a sit... it is extremely frustrating...it makes it really difficult to get really good sits and downs etc... "stay" falls apart too as people will ask for a stay and then forget to release him, and he will just wonder away...

so i've been thinking... what if i start re-training the cues and not using the old ones, and also not telling the new cues to others, but allowing them to continue using the old cues as they have been (it is extremely difficult to "train" people *sigh*)? i mean... would that make the behaviors fall apart even more? or would it help me to keep the behavior-cue association more clear for clover?

Mikey · 02-02-2010, 06:07 PM

You could do that-I see less problem having two cues for one behavior (in fact not really any problem) but having one cue for many behaviors is bad-so yeah-totally and I would wager that would make things simpler for you.

**fawkese1** · 02-02-2010, 06:20 PM

that is my thinking too, but i'm wondering if the behavior being allowed to fall apart when the old cues are used, if that would affect the over-all behavior... if that makes sense...

Mikey · 02-02-2010, 06:23 PM

I don't really think so-any time you get a shelter dog and train him after he's had some training-you re-training new cues for past behaviors (like sit or down they likely know but perhaps called something different or different hand cues) and it's not confusing for them.

Horses (who aren't as smart as dogs imo) are cross trained all the time-so while being ridden in english a left leg squeeze means move right. And in western a left rein tap means move right.

I dunno lol I don't think it'd be a problem at all-BUT it might be confusing at first for him?

**fawkese1** · 02-02-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

I don't really think so-any time you get a shelter dog and train him after he's had some training-you re-training new cues for past behaviors (like sit or down they likely know but perhaps called something different or different hand cues) and it's not confusing for them.

the difference i worry about with this is that the shelter dog isn't continuing to get the bad input... where as in my situation clover would continue to get inconsistant cues and reinforcements (or lack of) for the same behaviors that i would be asking for with different cues... so the cue is less important then the behavior, and if someone is rewarding for inconsistant sits with the old cue...would that make the sit inconsistent across the board? or would it work in reverse do you think... would it help the "sit" be more consistent for old cue, as the new cue could be kept clean...

Mikey · 02-02-2010, 08:36 PM

I have to say I don't think so-BUT I've been wrong before-I really think as long as what your doing is consitent he'll be fine. You know how dogs won't sit for some people but will always sit for others (like their owner but not for their grandma?) They kind of already know what they need to do to be rewarded (grandma will give me a cookie if I just sort of sit, mom needs me to sit nicely to give me a cookie-) so that's what they do-just what they need to for that person.

I'm rambling-anyways I think it should be fine but *shrugs* Crio's probably the best person to answer-hang on I'll get her...

"CRio!!!!"

**fawkese1** · 02-02-2010, 08:43 PM

lol... do you think she "heard" you?

seriously tho... i appreciate your input, i actually am thinking along the same linse as you are about this, but trying to work out the potential flaws... sorry if i'm arguing or seem to be

i was hoping that someone else may have tried something like this as i imagine it isn't a rare situation...

thanks for responding mikey

Mikey · 02-02-2010, 08:45 PM

No no-I know what you mean

I dont think she heard me-she must be offline..Im really quite loud

**Criosphynx** · 02-02-2010, 08:50 PM

has it caused a problem with your interactions with him? If not I'd be tempted to say to do nothing. I mean, as long as he understand you, ya know?

Kev says all sorts of wrong cues...but the only one that was a problem was the day he ruined down and I had to reteach it. I tried another cue, but I actually found that I liked using the same cue and just shaping it back to the original behavior.

Quote:

and if someone is rewarding for inconsistant sits with the old cue...would that make the sit inconsistent across the board? or would it work in reverse do you think... would it help the "sit" be more consistent for old cue, as the new cue could be kept clean...

i think you are overthinking this

. Clover will respond to you the same, and respond to that person differently, unless the other person trains him way way way more than you IMO

aaah you guys are posting to fast!!

**fawkese1** · 02-02-2010, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

No no-I know what you mean

I dont think she heard me-she must be offline..Im really quite loud

lol... you must be... here she is

Quote:

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

has it caused a problem with your interactions with him? If not I'd be tempted to say to do nothing. I mean, as long as he understand you, ya know?

Kev says all sorts of wrong cues...but the only one that was a problem was the day he ruined down and I had to reteach it. I tried another cue, but I actually found that I liked using the same cue and just shaping it back to the original behavior.

sometimes it does cause some issues, not that i'm going for any obedience trophies or anything, but i'd say that "stay" is the one that sticks out the most... the big problem is people telling him to stay and then not releasing him, then he sort of wonders off on his own maybe i'll just re-train that one... also "give" means put that in my hand, not just spit it out, for that i use "drop",yet other people use it that way and i tend to have issues....

i'd say that those two get used by other people quite a bit, and possibly more then me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

i think you are overthinking this

. Clover will respond to you the same, and respond to that person differently, unless the other person trains him way way way more than you IMO

this is true lol... i haven't been able to work with him as much as i was during the summer... then i could go into the backyard and have less distractions then in the house (i know that sounds backwards, but you should see my backyard) and it seems like something is always coming up, like hurting my knee and stuff...

anyway, it may just be that i need to re-shape and practice more often but i think that for stay i may just use the german bleib (not sure how to pronounce it) and let the "stay" be what everyone is doing with it currently...

thanks