Mikey and NRMs... (CRIO!! help!)

Mikey

LOL Well you said you liked training questions so I had to ask, and I didn't want to rob the topic in your other threads.

It sounds like you think NRM's are not a good training tool _you were talking about tippy I think, getting confused when you sat on teh floor. The dog was offering other behaviors and you were saying using an NRM would make him disengage?

Anywho-I see this a lot with Mikey-we're not sure if he's confused, or playing around (ie. choosing not to do what we are asking) or what?

Dave uses a lot of NRM's with him...should we stop doing this? If he's confused, let him offer behaviors or lure him into the correct one?

Love your opinion on this, Mikey got REALLY frustrated with me doing bow-he kept trying to lay down and I NRM'd that...

Criosphynx

yay...yes I love this stuff! Thank you

So when you were teaching the bow...and at the moments when you would use a NRM...what was the dog doing? Offering the down right? To me, that signals hes confused as to what you want...if he straight up walked away...i would NRM that perhaps.

notice in my Tippy vid I ask for a paw after she refused to bark...and she gives it...so to me that signals the dog is confused...that they WANT to do things for you, but are lost. If she didn't give paw then I would also think about how many distractions there were...another thing in that vid were the number of distractions...I tried on the floor later...just me and her...and she got it right away.

I would, next time he "ignores" ask for som'thing he really really really knows and then see what he does. If he continues to engage you...then personally I would not use a NRM and would simply back up a step

does that help?

EDIT...for the record, I don't think they are not useful or bad...but like anything else, they have their right and wrong places

NRM used correctly...on a high drive, high confidence dog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk6bWoD5E0c


see how the dogs feelings are not "hurt" and the dog does not get frustrated. Its very easy for most people to use a NRM as a correction on accident, which is not the correct way.

Mikey

OK I am going to have to really watch...it's hard to tell if he's fooling around or genuinely confused

I used NRMs' for the bow when he just layed right down or shook a paw but its hard to tell if he's messing around or confused or frustrated..you know?

Criosphynx

why would he mess around? lol he wants the reinforcer. So either your attention is reinforcing enough that he is repeating the "wrong" behaviors...or hes confused.

keep in mind, since you are training with praise only, you have IMO chosen a harder path , he probably doesn't have that fine line of undertstanding whats a reward and what isn't... vs a dog that either gets food or doesn't get food, or gets a toy/doesn't get a toy...which is very black and white...any words or eye contact you make probably is telling him hes on the right track. In your case you might want to be silent unless hes right, and look away if hes wrong. Make sence?

Mikey

Touche I guess we figure they feel the way we do-he seems to be 'joking' lol




Totally-he works better for praise and Dave's doing some treat training...Ok
Heres what we're doing.

No treats for obedience-and to me that makes sense. we aren't bribing for you to behave, you just do and we praise for that.
Treats for tricks-tricks are different in some respects and work good for this -luring etc. as well, tricks aren't 'respectful' sooooo they can be taught with treats...Anyways my thoughts.

Love the idea of looking away for wrong-THATS awesome!!

See like it's so easy to offer advice but when it's your dog -its so right to get outside opinoins...

I'd show you videos so you could input but you know....


BAH I am going ot have to break down and buy a crappy camera until xmas -I just know it

fawkese1

i hope i'm not bugging you by piping in, and i'm not trying to convince you to use food as your reward, whatever motivates your dog to learn the fastest is the best reinforcer...i'm just throwing this in there, from my experience. i used to think like this too, but i wonder, does mikey (or any animal) know the difference between a behavior that is a trick and a behavior that is considered obedience? food doesn't have to be used as a lure, and it is only bait/bribe when it is used as a lure....
crios thread on training with food explains it better than i do, and the thread on targeting gets started on using a target instead of a lure...

hope i didn't annoy you

Mikey

Totally-and you know what-I *never* trained anything before without it With any animal Mikey just seems to get stumped learning with food. Once he gets something we use treats, but to learn a new trick. I spent months on roll over with him....we finally taught it without treats and now he does it for treats...but learning with treats was confusing for him.

I know we're not doing anything wrong because I've always taught with treats, and trained MANY animals with them.
For instance, Mandy can answere the telephone-both gettting it ''off the hook' and 'talking' into it. Plays the guitar and sings...
I CAN train
But for Mikey to 'learn' something new-no treats or he won't get it =what a goof!!

And NO!!! you did not annoy me at all So glad someone is up late with me LoL

fawkese1

of course i'm up late, it's saturday night and i have nothing else to do
lol...i had a homework assignment due tonight too, so i kept popping on here to see if anyone else was posting

i'm not saying that you can't train, i know you can, i'm just curious about what you are saying here:
i just don't think that the dog knows the difference between something that you ask him to do for obedience and something that you consider a trick...if the dog won't do the behavior w/o food, then the food was used as lure, and the lure wasn't faded out properly....
for you and mikey, obviously, praise is working better as a reward, and that is great that he loves praise that much....i've worked with animals that aren't motivated by food whatsoever.....i worked with a cockatoo who in the first place wouldn't do anything for you if he didn't like you, and then would only do it for scratches.....sometimes i use a toy/play when i am training clover....the thing is, finding the right reward for the animal right.....i mean look at service dogs that assist the disabled...lots of the things they are trained to do are also "tricks" like fetching you a beer or taking off your socks or closing/opening doors...etc....i think the real challenge and difference between training obedience and training tricks is in the "proofing" of the behavior, how many situations you can rely on your dog to respond in etc, and with how many distractions....the process of training through all of those is what will teach the dog when he really really has to listen, way more than what you used as a reward ....sorry, i rambled, but i'll stop now, not trying to take over your thread or anything, and you were talking about NRMs...

Mikey

NAW!! That's what I love about this forum....it's OT but not really right? We're OT but chatting. I like other perspectives.

Mikey works real well for praise, and seems to work more for praise then treats. Though he goes bonkers for treats-and it confuses him-he works best for praise.....


Saturday night-I KNOW!! LOL Dave is such a baby in bed by midnight at the latest *sigh* He even bought a ps3 and metal gear solid 4 tonight-in bed by midnight *rolls eyes* I am older then he is-what a baby!!

Criosphynx

Bingo.


as far as bribing with food...I don't bribe with food, and none of the people using food correctly are bribing. Food is a reward, just like the praise you are using, if the dog is fixating on it then som'thing isn't right. Forgive me if that hits a soft spot, because its som'thing compulsion trainers always use to debunk training with food. Bad trainers bribe, good trainers reward and they always lump us together.

As far as him not working for food, well, every organism on the planet that eats WILL work for food. Its a primary reinforcer...Som' may need to be a little hungrier, som' might need high value food...but they all will do it.

I think it was Skinner who conditioned pigeons to tap a lever for food, once the bird knew that.. they were given free food with the option of still pecking the lever to EARN food....every, single, bird still chose to earn the food.

but yes, if praise is working for you go for it, the dog chooses the reinforcer, not us

videos would be uber helpful.