Ceasor Millan??

Tess · 09-01-2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juliemule

I can"t say that I agree or disagree with CM training.

I do have a malinois who is almost two that had no socialization, was not let out of her kennel for her first year of life, and is unknown what else has happened to her.

She has become very attached to me, but shuts down any time our little routine is out of the norm. She will do nothing for a trainer, just shakes and looks at the ground. I have taught her to sit and lie down, come when called but thats as far as we have come so far. She is extremely intelligent, but will not properly react with people.

I have to be extremely careful with her, as can definately become a fear biter in the wrong situation. She has began to get aggresive with another dog, a goat and a turkey. We have a farm, and she is fine with the animals unless they approach her combatively.

The clicker scares her and again she shuts down. I am starting to put her in situations she is uncomfortable and just walk through the like nothing is wrong. She will now ride in the truck, and has gone out in public (in a controlled environment). I don't know that this would be recommended by many people, but I have found with her, this is the only way we have made any progress.

She will not eat treats unless she is at home and they are from me. She is terrified of my son (16), and will hide if she hears or sees him. Strangers she has the same reaction to. I am working with her on letting him approach. She is very uncomfortable, and he just stands there until she relaxes a bit, then we repeat in a day just coming closer. I will not do this with a stranger because of the chance of being bitten. When she progresses more we will work with an in home trainer. Hannah is extremely loving towards me now, but it took a lot of work, work that will continue for years. I have no expectations of her ever being anything but a pet. Her litter mates and parents are all working dogs. Its a sad deal, but IMO, better than euthanasia, where she was headed. Good luck with your dog.

Juliemule, this dog is so lucky to be with you! Hearing your story... I have a book to recommend for you, if you have not seen it. I heard about it here, got it and read it, and it has made a huge difference for my dog Josey, who is naturally quite shy. If you are not familiar with Turid Rugaas's work, you might really like it to help your dog. She sounds like a sweetie, just scared of the world, and you are helping her through. With your help, she will keep improving and enjoy life more and more!

Amazon.com: On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals (9781929242368): Turid Rugaas: Books

juliemule · 09-01-2010, 07:47 PM

Crio, thank you I have not heard of light training. Is that like a laser light? That may work as she is very attentive, and I have a feelin she may not be afraid of that.

pawzaddict · 09-01-2010, 07:49 PM

It is an LED light. Not the laser ones but the mini flashlight type ones. I got 2 different ones in the camping section at walmart for about 5 bucks total. I use an LED light to train my deaf dog and it works just as well as the clicker works for my other dogs

**Criosphynx** · 09-01-2010, 09:29 PM

what paws said

Its still a mechanical marker, so it doesn't have to pass through the part of the brain that processes language...so its just as effective as the click sound, but more effective than a verbal marker "yes" "good" etc

Ironwil · 09-07-2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmes

Honestly I do not like Ceasar Millan or his techniques.
Perhaps reading up will help you understand why true professionals disagree with his methods. Here are a few links to get you started!

The Dominance Controversy - Philosophy - Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
I especially like this site! Make sure you read everything... "Leadership Without Force", "A Better Way", and "The Dominance Controversy".

http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

I still haven't read anything in these articles that makes me think dogs aren't pack-oriented or that dominance isn't occurring. The material I read basically forms a definition of dominance and then tries to disprove it against dog behavior. Simply because dogs have abundant resources doesn't mean they have no tendencies to hoard those resources. I'm not arguing for the pack and dominance angle, though since dogs have been thought of as pack animals for such a long time it's easier to believe. Personally, I find the thought of leadership without force an extremely attractive idea, and have already been practicing that manner of training for about a year now. Even so, I've found that dogs act very much like one would expect in a pack-oriented mentality. The males often fight when the females are in heat, access to food is sometimes blocked by the larger, stronger dogs, and they'll also fight over treats, toys and attentions. If there is some sort of proof that the pack mentality is a flawed vision, I'd love to read it. The materials I've seen so far say that they're proving it, but honestly it's just an opinion stated as fact. It might be true, but I haven't seen that yet.

**Criosphynx** · 09-07-2010, 03:00 PM

ack...this got unearthed again!

Dominance is about resources and object exchange. No one is arguing that.

It is however, not a FIXED personality trait, a dog cannot be a "dominant" dog...if you throw down one bone, with two dogs, the dog that keeps it is technically "dominant"...big whoop dee doo.....try it again...now the other dog has it...so what did you learn? That dominance CHANGES.

...and all bad behavior is not status seeking...the idea of using punishment based methods on dogs becuase everything they do we human don't like is called "dominance" is the main contention..

Quote:

The males often fight when the females are in heat, access to food is sometimes blocked by the larger, stronger dogs, and they'll also fight over treats, toys and attentions.

do your dogs actually physically fight over treats/toys/attention? Likely not, they do lots of ritualized behaviors to communicate who those things belong to...OR they share them freely...if dogs are getting in actual FIGHTS over these things...we are either talking about a starving/feral situation...a dog with ZERO social skills...or a household where you have lots of unnatural circumstances coupled with frustrated animals.

I have 5 dogs, one is a RG...but they do not fight over food/toys/ or attention. My RG has never been in a fight ever...in fact the other day, som'one put a bowl of food down at the dog park...he growled...that was it.

keep in mind, feral dogs around the globe to not form PACKS or have PACK behavior...they have friendships and dogs come and go from the group as they please.

GreatDaneMom · 09-07-2010, 03:16 PM

forget my response there...

ScentHound · 09-07-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

ack...this got unearthed again!

Dominance is about resources and object exchange. No one is arguing that.

It is however, not a FIXED personality trait, a dog cannot be a "dominant" dog.

I still say, pee on his head.

emaleigh · 09-07-2010, 05:14 PM

I just wanted to mention that I was a BIG fan of Ceasor. I watched his shows religiously and practiced his methods successfully with my dogs and other dogs in my area. They DO work. However since I have gained a new understanding from this thread I have been putting the new methods into practice and they generate results a LOT quicker. Whilst my dogs did throw behaviors before, they seem more confident and quicker to offer them now. The positive reward method is defiantly better if you want your dog to willingly learn the behavior and enjoy doing so, which means they are more likely to offer the behavior naturally.

I am still having some issues to do a correction for the dog, and find myself resorting to Ceasors 'sshht' on occasions. So I am trying to find the right balance for positive reinforcemet and discipline and how to do they more effectively.

**Criosphynx** · 09-07-2010, 05:32 PM

Very glad to hear that Emaleigh!!