Ceasor Millan??

emaleigh · 08-31-2010, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmes

I might be taking things off track a bit but maybe this will help explain a few things to you....

We like to set a dog up for success. CM sets up the dog to fail so that he can "correct" the behavior.
It would be like someone always telling you "No, that's wrong!" but never telling you what they want you to do. You would get confused and pretty frustrated!

The trainer whose classes I attend with my dogs always does a demonstration in every Basic Obedience class to show the importance of communicating when a dog does something right. It really helps people to understand why positive reinforcement and operant conditioning/clicker training works!
She chooses 2 people and sends them out, while she explains to everyone that she is going to try and get the the people to do something. She then asks for someone to come up with something (last time it was to get water from the water cooler).
Then she calls them back in one at a time. The fist person, recieves "yes's" (she uses a clicker in clicker training classes) and "cold's". The yes's/clicks are for when they are headed in the right direction and the "cold's" are for when they are heading off track. The first person almost always figure out what to do.
The second person is then called back in. They only recieve the "cold's". I have personally been this person, and let me tell you, it is extremely confusing, frustrating, and pretty much impossable to figure it out. Almost everyone, myself included just gives up (shutdown!!!).
If you wanted to take it a bit further, following CM's techniques, this second person would always be physically punished or nagged (with a poke, "foot tap" etc) everytime they did not get it right. This is not a fun way to learn anything!

Thanks again for replying (with the positive comments anyway) and for answering my questions so I can better understand the different logics. I will certainly be making improvements to my training sessions.

pawzaddict · 08-31-2010, 09:23 PM

? We were negative? I thought the information, links and examples given by everyone was pretty good....

kmes - way to break it down!

**Criosphynx** · 08-31-2010, 09:24 PM

Lol, I posted pretty much the same thing as Kmes (as far as theory)...Oh well

**kmes** · 08-31-2010, 09:57 PM

Emaleigh, I am glad that I could help you!

Honestly though, other's here (Especially Crio!) know way more than I do. I really just recently started to really get into reading about theory.

I hope you carfully read through all of the different links/sources that were posted here. They all contain a ton of information that will help you to fully understand not only our stance on Ceasar Millan's techniques, but also help you to learn about new and better ways to teach your dog.

HarleyHasMyHeart · 08-31-2010, 10:05 PM

One of my favorite shows is Its Me or The Dog and Victoria Stilwell says that his methods are not good because in the wild dogs earn the respect of the other dogs and Caesar's techniques teach your dog to fear you and make you like a bully.
My sister used to think his mehtods were good too and actually since she has started doing techniques that we see on Victoria's show it has helped our dogs tremendously. They have work to do but I see these techniques working faster, more accurate and the dogs are happier than being "bullied" around.

emaleigh · 08-31-2010, 10:24 PM

All of the information and links posted were great, I am very appreciative to everyone who took the time to post. I guess the biggest confusion was Ceasor always said dogs don't understand punishment, just discipline. So to hear a totally different spin on dog physcology after a few years can be super confusing. He presented his methods as though it was talking to the dogs in their own language and providing clear structure and leadership for them.

I will be reading the links and hope to gain a new perspective as to training my dogs to get the best possible results and have super happy spoiled pooches.

I have a question for you, well more of a case study. My Maltese girl is 7 years old, I got her from a breeder who I suspect used her just for pups and neglected her care. Anyways Ellie took a few months to come out of her shell but is now a happy healthy sweet girl. However she has no interest in playing with me with toys. (I suspect she was kept in a dirty small cage with little to no human interaction, she also has suspicious wounds/scars on her - but don't know for sure) I can get her excited and she'll run up to me sit down, look up at me and paw the air curling up her lip. Not in aggression but excitement. But she has no interest in actual playing or toys in general. She did not play with other dogs either, UNTIL she had her pups and I kept her female pup to grow up with her - they still play occasionally.

Also she can sit but thats about it, she has no interest in wanting to do tricks and I never try force it. Shes an angel, extremely well behaved but seems already shut down. She comes when called, never wanders off, fantastic on/off leash, sit, travels well, won't steal food off your plate etc. I never tried to force the issue with her, hoping in time she would come around. I've had her over a year now, and I don't treat her like a rescue, I treat her like I would any other dog. Shes not nervous or anything, and has come a long way since I got her. Do you think a dog like her would come around to doing tricks with clicker training? It would be interesting for me now to test it out with her

I would love to do some agility with her, but shes never interested.

**Criosphynx** · 08-31-2010, 10:33 PM

Iam happy

You just described my pomeranian, Critter. Same thing.

There is a critical socialization period...imprinting, if you will, for dog-dog play and for dog-toy play. If she missed that period, that is why she shows no interest.

There have been studies, dogs left tethered in a plain room, during these periods, and same thing...no desire to interact. Most, if not all puppy mill breeder dogs behave this way...pet store puppies also. Its from lack of stimulation.

I have been able to teach mine a small number of tricks, the dog enjoys the process tremendously...but it is slower, like she has to try harder to understand. Almost like there are fewer brain synapses

But with clicker training, the process is the product...dogs love interaction...so it will be to her benefit..

Keep in mind shut down is the dog giving up, usually they freeze and refuse to move....is she doing that or just not wanting to do tricks because shes not interested?

as far as her "coming out of it"...that will depend. To be honest, these types are never quite the same generally IME

emaleigh · 08-31-2010, 11:43 PM

Thats super interesting to know, the breeder I got her from is Crystal Key Kennels so I was very shocked to the state I received the dogs in. (They used to breed Maltese, but have since switched to another breed.) Does anybody know anything of this breeder Theresa in Cawston in Canada? she also shows and is CKC or AKC registered I believe. I also got my other maltese Jimmy from the same breeder, he had similar behavior issue but came around alot faster, he now plays with me. The breeder had only had Jimmy for 2 years, but Ellie her whole life. So its interesting and defiantly points the blame towards her. Ellie also does a handstand to pee, its cute but someone suggested it might be because she was in a crate and trying to keep her feces all in one place.

Ellie acts shut down, she freezes and either tries to back away or looks at the ground - its only when I present her with the idea of learning something new. Out and about shes fearless and never wants to leave my side. Its only when i ask something of her. I'm not too concerned with her learning a bunch of tricks... but I would like to teach her agility. Just some basics for fun + excersize. I know she would be great at it.

Have you made any progress with your Critter?

juliemule · 09-01-2010, 02:59 PM

I can"t say that I agree or disagree with CM training.

I do have a malinois who is almost two that had no socialization, was not let out of her kennel for her first year of life, and is unknown what else has happened to her.

She has become very attached to me, but shuts down any time our little routine is out of the norm. She will do nothing for a trainer, just shakes and looks at the ground. I have taught her to sit and lie down, come when called but thats as far as we have come so far. She is extremely intelligent, but will not properly react with people.

I have to be extremely careful with her, as can definately become a fear biter in the wrong situation. She has began to get aggresive with another dog, a goat and a turkey. We have a farm, and she is fine with the animals unless they approach her combatively.

The clicker scares her and again she shuts down. I am starting to put her in situations she is uncomfortable and just walk through the like nothing is wrong. She will now ride in the truck, and has gone out in public (in a controlled environment). I don't know that this would be recommended by many people, but I have found with her, this is the only way we have made any progress.

She will not eat treats unless she is at home and they are from me. She is terrified of my son (16), and will hide if she hears or sees him. Strangers she has the same reaction to. I am working with her on letting him approach. She is very uncomfortable, and he just stands there until she relaxes a bit, then we repeat in a day just coming closer. I will not do this with a stranger because of the chance of being bitten. When she progresses more we will work with an in home trainer. Hannah is extremely loving towards me now, but it took a lot of work, work that will continue for years. I have no expectations of her ever being anything but a pet. Her litter mates and parents are all working dogs. Its a sad deal, but IMO, better than euthanasia, where she was headed. Good luck with your dog.

**Criosphynx** · 09-01-2010, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emaleigh

Thats super interesting to know, the breeder I got her from is Crystal Key Kennels so I was very shocked to the state I received the dogs in. (They used to breed Maltese, but have since switched to another breed.) Does anybody know anything of this breeder Theresa in Cawston in Canada? she also shows and is CKC or AKC registered I believe. I also got my other maltese Jimmy from the same breeder, he had similar behavior issue but came around alot faster, he now plays with me. The breeder had only had Jimmy for 2 years, but Ellie her whole life. So its interesting and defiantly points the blame towards her. Ellie also does a handstand to pee, its cute but someone suggested it might be because she was in a crate and trying to keep her feces all in one place.

Ellie acts shut down, she freezes and either tries to back away or looks at the ground - its only when I present her with the idea of learning something new. Out and about shes fearless and never wants to leave my side. Its only when i ask something of her. I'm not too concerned with her learning a bunch of tricks... but I would like to teach her agility. Just some basics for fun + excersize. I know she would be great at it.

Have you made any progress with your Critter?

She might have been punished for "trying new things" before you got her...or she might just have a very soft soft temperament, which can come from poor breeding...its hard to say if its nature or nurture..

Critter knows a variety of behaviors now, she did however have to be put on an SSRI (anxiety med) about a year ago because she was so phobic she could not even function....there is an old thread som'where about it.

They are trainable, just its hard to not compare them to the other dog if you are training other dogs in the household...its kinda boring, to me personally, to work with the slower dogs now that I have my brainiac pup to compare her too.

Juliemule...

Quote:

The clicker scares her and again she shuts down

Iam using a photon light as a marker for Critter, she is also phobic of the clicker sound. It works beautifully.

Also, you may want to look into "control unleashed" exercises...they are for fearful dogs.