Ceasor Millan??

Criosphynx

there is well over an hour of reading material there plus more links at the end of two of them To sound cheesy, knowledge is power, the more you read, the more you know. I can't force you to read them, in the end

you are using food incorrectly. It absolutely DOES work. It sounds like your dogs do not have enough foundation work. You are blaming the method, but you are not executing the method right.

Thoughts on training with food


Classical and Operant Conditioning

once you understand it, You will see why Cesars methods are flawed.

you use classical, counterconditioning...I can provide you another link if you are interested...I have "fixed" an "aggressive" dog with no corrections.

emaleigh

Thank you for the links. I am proof reading so I can stay up to date with this thread. But they are bookmarked and I will read more in depth. I have heard of the theories behind OC and CC before, just never called by those names.

The one thing I never understood is how you can enforce the negative punishment if you don't have something to take away from the dog. Taking the example from before of the dog at the dog park. What if when I removed him from the dog park and that was a reward for him. Cesors methods are to hold the dogs bum for the other dog to sniff to put them in a submissive state of mind. Which is something I don't agree with.

ScentHound

Woohoo!!! Let us see how long we can ride this wave out.

Criosphynx

I can not think of any circumstance where there is nothing to remove that the dog wants.

then you wouldn't use that...if you dog is aggressing at the dog park, you would not take him IN the dog park. That is setting the dog up to fail...he is OVER THRESHOLD, dogs that are OT cannot learn...this is basic learning theory and is covered in those links. You need to countercondition and desensitize the dog at a level that is UNDER threshold. Anytime a dog is aggressing, they are in flight or flight and the brain cannot learn new things correctly.


forgive my foul/short mood...99% of the time people post these threads, they truely have ZERO interest in learning and just want to fight about how cesar is their hero and can do no wrong...and no matter what proof they are shown, nothing sways them. Its VERY frustrating on this end.

either way, my dogs behavior speaks for itself. As to hundreds of other dogs trained without PP.


no worries, Iam not terribly in the mood...Iam bored right now, so its all good

fawkese1

ScentHound

I'll remember that when you throw something heavy and spiky at me. I have had 3 cups of coffee in the last 2 hours. I am looking like the coffee guy on Mad TV.

Criosphynx

well now...looky here. And I thought I'd get a little help...

I guess you handled the last one...so its a fair trade

hey now, I haven't beaten you up recently

pawzaddict

This and....

This

Trust me I used Cesars methods before joining this forum, well not to the max but still, I started to read and learn and am still learning and I have a better control under my uber reactive dog who still needs work. The main point is to keep the dog under threshold, this is why it takes a long time sometimes for a reactive dog to be less reactive.

kmes

I might be taking things off track a bit but maybe this will help explain a few things to you....

We like to set a dog up for success. CM sets up the dog to fail so that he can "correct" the behavior.
It would be like someone always telling you "No, that's wrong!" but never telling you what they want you to do. You would get confused and pretty frustrated!

The trainer whose classes I attend with my dogs always does a demonstration in every Basic Obedience class to show the importance of communicating when a dog does something right. It really helps people to understand why positive reinforcement and operant conditioning/clicker training works!
She chooses 2 people and sends them out, while she explains to everyone that she is going to try and get the the people to do something. She then asks for someone to come up with something (last time it was to get water from the water cooler).
Then she calls them back in one at a time. The fist person, recieves "yes's" (she uses a clicker in clicker training classes) and "cold's". The yes's/clicks are for when they are headed in the right direction and the "cold's" are for when they are heading off track. The first person almost always figure out what to do.
The second person is then called back in. They only recieve the "cold's". I have personally been this person, and let me tell you, it is extremely confusing, frustrating, and pretty much impossable to figure it out. Almost everyone, myself included just gives up (shutdown!!!).
If you wanted to take it a bit further, following CM's techniques, this second person would always be physically punished or nagged (with a poke, "foot tap" etc) everytime they did not get it right. This is not a fun way to learn anything!

ScentHound

That's only because I have not been here to much lately.

No worries, you can beat me up anytime.