Ceasor Millan??

emaleigh

Someone mentioned on the forum that Ceasor Millans training methods were bad. I was wondering if someone can explain just exactly why? I use his methods with my own dogs with great success, and I don't want to if its harming them. My dogs seem happy and are very well behaved, so I don't want to use a different method unless its vital.

I was advised to read the shut down section, and I did. I found nothing that helped me understand whats wrong with his training or the logic behind it. My dogs are given the chance to make the mistake then corrected with a 'sssht' noise, and they are very responsive in all sorts of situations. I even use these methods with rowdy dogs at the dog park with no training. And it works by interupting their forward brained mentality and giving them praise only when they are in a calm state and behaving well (at least this was my understanding). I watched the dog whisperer series religiously and saw his training methods in action with tons of problem dogs. From aggression, to nervousness, obsession and abused dogs. He saved lots of dogs from being put to sleep, and I always thought his methods were 'humane'. My dogs are not depressed and its been bugging me to think I may be doing something wrong by them. I also occasionally offer to help problem dogs in the area for free. And I use Ceasors methods then as well.

Please let me know any opinions you may have, professional trainers or not. Thanks guys.

kmes

Honestly I do not like Ceasar Millan or his techniques.
Perhaps reading up will help you understand why true professionals disagree with his methods. Here are a few links to get you started!

The Dominance Controversy - Philosophy - Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
I especially like this site! Make sure you read everything... "Leadership Without Force", "A Better Way", and "The Dominance Controversy".


http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

Criosphynx

I highly suggest you do a search with the search feature on this site, there are likely hundreds of pages explaining why his methods are 'bad" there are also numerous stickies in both the behavior and training forums that cover why his methods are not recommended.



to answer your question, from your description, you are interupting, not correcting with that sound. Either way, interuption is just one piece of training. Its is not modifying the behavior, which is the goal...

Cesars method is based on finding things the dog does wrong and "correcting" the dog...positive methods focus on rewarding the things we do like, I prefer clicker training which is a method of communication that accellerates the dogs learning process. Also keep in mind that MANY dogs on his show ended up given away, given back to shelters and even euthanized later. Som'thing they don't show you on tv.

Which classroom would you rather be in? The one where the teacher throws candy at you when you get the answer right, or the one where the teacher hits your desk with a yardstick when your wrong? Lets just say the teacher praises you after hitting your desk...it still isn't a place I'd like to be


If that sound he uses was "magical" and worked, you would not have to keep doing it over and over. This is called nagging, and its very addicting to our primate brains, we like the variable reinforcement, just like a gambling addiction...so in fact, the less often a method works, the more reinforcing it is to the handler (until they realize the cycle). Which is part of the reason people can't take a step back and see that its not really, truely working.


anyway, I highly suggest you do a search, this has been discussed to death already


It is possible to train dogs (or anything) to a high level of reliability without using any form of positive punishment, including NRM (no reward markers). So one must ask themselves, if its not needed, why use it? Are you familiar with operant and classical conditioning? or clicker training?

Criosphynx

from one of KMES links...

My cat bite was over $30,000. This is why trainers, or anyone that works with animals should carry insurance. Som'thing you should think about since I see the OP mentioned they offer "services" for free to people


btw GREAT link.

emaleigh

Except you don't have to keep doing it over and over. After about three corrections my dogs won't try again. It doesn't become a punishment it becomes a sign for the dog to redirect and my dogs will look at me and wag their tails. If you are training with clicker training and the dog does something bad, i.e at the dog park shows aggression towards another dog, how can you train them if you have to just ignore the bad stuff? There has to be some ''right way'' to set boundries as well?

I have used clicker training when I was teaching one of my old dogs to be a search and rescue dog. So I get the methods behind it, but how can you apply that to the dogs full training regime and correct/redirect bad behavior?

I did read some of the other threads, but I have not seen anything that showed an understanding of his methods and anything beyond opinion that I couldn't fully comprehend without asking further questions. Thats why I made my own thread, apologies. I don't mean this to sound cinical but is there any evidence or reports about the dogs Ceasor trained later being euthanised or given away because his training didn't work. There are tons of rumors going around about trainers, mainly started by other trainers, so one has to be able to sort through the half truths and truths. Ceasor has meet ups where dogs he trained gather, I went to one of these events and met people who had their dogs trained 4+ years ago and were now well behaved. Theres always going to be some dogs that will revert back to old ways, but I'd pin it down more that the owners didn't upkeep with the training or didn't do it right than ceasors method.

Does anyone else use his techniques?

Criosphynx

Can you read the links please? Its way easier than typing everything out, You only signed on moments ago, and spend most of that typing out your reply. You must read what we are providing you to understand what we are saying.

Iam more than happy to answer your questions, but I don't have any faith your listening, since you obviously skipped over the provided materials. Most, if not all your answers are IN those links Nothing personal.

he writes about it in HIS OWN books.

pawzaddict

I use to use his techniques and failed. In place of corrections you can use negative punishment (take away something to stop the behavior) so if the dog is reactive at a dog park simply remove the dog park and take baby steps in introducing your dog to other dogs, such as using "look at that!" Game. If your dog is resource guarding remove what he is guarding and work on slowly introducing the object while using clicker training (dog looks at object, click, treat, dog sniffs object, click, treat, dog looks at other dog approaching object , click before any reaction, treat, etc etc)
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alfi

I don't use Ceasar methods but I do use some "corrections"/corrections as I'm not very experienced to use only PR...I think reading the dog before he acts is a key to success with PR.

Criosphynx

are you familiar with OC and CC?

emaleigh

I did read the links, most of the videos are out and I thought it was a bit dramatic. I am not familiar with OC or CC. I have done clicker training, and may possibly just know the them but by different terms/understanding. I am not a dog trainer, I just enjoy working with my dogs and others.

I understand ceasors methods require that the dog is ''flooded'' which sounds bad, but really just means exposed to whatever he/she needs to be trained with. I am just trying to understand because the website makes it sound like ceasors methods mean you must provoke the behavior. When really its all about the energy, it doesn't require you over dominate the dog. (The old school techniques are the ones that require you bite the dogs ear etc)

When I clicker train its just for specific sequence tricks. I have tried to use it with corrections but really it just teaches the dog to avoid the situation. Then as soon as you run out of treats, or your not close enough to the dog to get the full attention... it doesn't work.

I did read all your posts, if I miss a question or two... thats because of my memory not my lack of listening skills. I wouldn't post a thread if I wasn't willing to listen. When I watch my dogs interacting, my older dogs will discipline the younger ones. For example if they are playing to close and step on him, he'll growl and snap at them but not hurt them. Its like a correction and the pups know to stay away. The dog isn't constanltly rewarding him with attention to get him to prefer doing that instead of the bad behavior.