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An Alpha Dog????

This is a discussion on An Alpha Dog???? within the Dog Training forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; I posted this in another forums sometime ago and it came up again recently. The level of stupidity is so incredible that if you simply ...

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Old 01-09-2010, 11:30 PM
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An Alpha Dog????

I posted this in another forums sometime ago and it came up again recently. The level of stupidity is so incredible that if you simply heard the details, you'd swear I was making it up.

The author is a strong Millan advocate and unfortunately believes all the 'alpha/dominance' stuff he's fed her.

As not to affect your opinion, here are the three videos on showing the trainer's methods on what she calls an alpha dog, red zone case. What do you see?

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/Video/Al...lkProtest1.mov

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/Video/Al...efuseWalk2.mov

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/Video/Al...efuseWalk3.mov

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I'll just point out some sections of interest to show how this alpha thinking can color our interpretation of behaviour so badly that everything, no matter how absurd gets painted with the dominance brush. Eric Goebelbecker at DogStar Daily wrote an article called ‘How Dominance can Make You Dumb.' After reading and seeing what went on here I think that Dominance makes you really dumb.

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When we had first headed out for the night the dog had refused to walk with his owner, the dad of the family. The dog had sat down and put up a loud protesting fuss. When the owner had tried to coax the dog to begin walking the dog had bared his teeth at the owner.
Given what they write later on, I suspect by "coaxed" she really means force. And why try to force the dog to do something it is clearly against? To enforce your idea of dominance?

The dog sat in a pacifying/appeasement gesture and remained immobile - together these behaviors give a strong indication of the dog's intention. They ignored the dog and used more force. The dog responded with a stronger indication and bared his teeth at them. How many warnings do these fools need?
Through the walk the dog was whining in a very anxious way
.

Once they got him moving (by force) they see dominance in the dog being in front. I would argue that the dog was motivated to get back home and for that reason was ahead of them. And of course the dog was anxious. Most dogs are during Halloween.
This is what dog psychologist Cesar Millan (the Dog Whisperer) calls a red zone case, because the dog bit someone drawling blood.

Millan is not a dog psychologist, there is no such thing. And at best he is a dog groomer. Red zone is a nice marketing term, and based on the videos and the amount of abuse this dog suffered without responding, he is NOT a red zone dog.

I do not consider drawing blood to be that significant. Depending on the location of the bite, it can be relatively easy to draw blood. Given the events on Halloween, it's pretty clear that the people consider communication a one way street. THEIR WAY!
Luke was a White German Shepherd who not only believed he owned his family, his home and everything around him, but he had bottled up energy from lack of exercise.
This woman must be the world's first dog mind reader. Dogs, AFA Is K, don't have a concept of ownership.
As soon as someone challenged him, for example asking him to sit when he didn't wish to, he would put up a protest refusing to listen.
Again while she writes 'asking' I suspect it really means forcing, hanging, jerking or some other use of aversive. I doubt this dog even knew that SIT was related to a specific behaviour.
when he was corrected it was either done in a passive way or done in an angry way and the dog would pee.
Submissive urination. This kills the the author's thesis that the dog is dominant. However because she is a Millan acolyte, dominance is the only way she has to interpret the dogs reaction. It also tells us that the use of aversives in this case is bordering on the abuse.
We knew the best way to get the dog to see humans as his pack leader was to take him for a pack walk.
That this woman actually believes this idiotically simplistic meme is sad and dangerous. `

In another article she defines a pack walk "where the dog is made to heel beside or behind the human who is holding the lead." which begs the question: Where do dog pack leaders keep their leashes hidden? They don't have pockets? Or hands.
However Luke refused to leave his home. It was very clear Luke owned his human family, especially the lady of the house.
So because the dog was anxious about going out, the author concludes the dog owns the human family? How are these related?
from the way he was protesting walking away from his home, I decided he absolutely needed a muzzle to keep the humans around him safe.
From the abuse the dog suffers on the 1st video, it is no wonder she was afraid of defensive aggression.
We did not want to walk him back to his home because that would be giving the dog what he wanted, making him mentally stronger
Because the dominance/punishment trainers see everything as a struggle for status, it is impossible for them to conceive that this dog was simply afraid and wanted the comfort of his home.


We did our best to keep his tail from going between his legs in an attempt to help him snap out of his negative state of mind.
Not abusing a fearlful animal would go a long way toward easing his negative state of mind. Doing something stupid like pulling on the tail is equivalent to having someone pull on the corners of your mouth to make you sad or happy.
She was very visibly nervous making it almost impossible to get the dog to move on. We tried food. No go. He was not food motivated at all.
The dog has been severely manhandled and is on his way to shutting down, and now they offer food?
He was so loud people were coming out of their houses mistaking his reaction for us abusing the dog.
I'd call it abuse.
We knew we had to try harder to get him to walk, however we were drawling a crowd and the people watching had no idea why the dog was acting out.
This trainer is a bloody idiot! She abuse the dog to the point people are coming out of their house. She has no success with force, so here reaction: more force!

We decided to call the owner back and get her to drive the dog to my farm.
Ashamed to be seen applying her training methods, this trainer takes the dog to where people can't report her abuse.
For two hours straight Luke refused, protesting up a storm. Thank goodness for muzzles! We knew if we allowed Luke to win this battle he would be that much stronger, that much harder for this family to get under control.
Because these two idiots are so stuck on the idea of dominance they abused this poor dog relentlessly for several hours. And since they see everything in terms of a contest for dominance they are unable to see sign after sign that this dog was not dominant at all but fearful.

In the video we see the dog throwing submission, appeasement, calming signals left and right. All ignored by the trainers stuck on the idea of dominance.

So, these idiots abuse the dog for 4 hours to the point where the dog was collapsing from the treatment and their response to it? To pull the dog's tail from between its legs, as if this would somehow undo the hours of abuse.

Finally the dog walks, exhausted, beaten and afraid and they celebrate this as if it was some great victory.

I ask myself what the f@## does a dog have to do for this woman to see something other than dominance?

Truly, dominance has made them dumb.
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Old 01-09-2010, 11:36 PM
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I'm almost scared to watch the videos -but i am...
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Old 01-09-2010, 11:50 PM
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ZOMG

I honestly think you could show those video's to someone who is not a dog owner-nay-someone scared of a dog. AND THEY would see that dog is not aggressive but fearful. I'm almost furious...Wait I am

AND WHAT is that trainer-like eleven?? I wouldn't care her methods or training or education-I wouldn't let a kid like that come train my dog...

Quote:
which begs the question: Where do dog pack leaders keep their leashes hidden? They don't have pockets? Or hands.
Sorry-I didn't get what you mean here?

Quote:
Not abusing a fearlful animal would go a long way toward easing his negative state of mind. Doing something stupid like pulling on the tail is equivalent to having someone pull on the corners of your mouth to make you sad or happy.
Well put

Quote:
Ashamed to be seen applying her training methods, this trainer takes the dog to where people can't report her abuse.
Nail on the head I'd say

Quote:
I ask myself what the f@## does a dog have to do for this woman to see something other than dominance?
I don't think a dog has any other tools to show they are scared and harmless then this dog displayed.
If that kind of abuse continues I really see the dog developing neurotic behaviors like licking until he gets sores. She will likely see that as a power struggle.
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:48 AM
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oh god, I don't even know if I can stomach more cesar garbage today...I'll try brb
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
which begs the question: Where do dog pack leaders keep their leashes hidden? They don't have pockets? Or hands.
Quote:
Sorry-I didn't get what you mean here?
if you are really mimicking a pack leader...the leader in a "pack" would be another dog...dogs don't have hands or leashes.


they are quicktime movies and wont work on this computer, I'll try again at work.


Quote:
We did our best to keep his tail from going between his legs in an attempt to help him snap out of his negative state of mind.
must be sure to try that one

Last edited by Criosphynx; 01-10-2010 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:46 PM
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Ouf I can't see the vids...but I guess from what you say it will be very frustrated to watch them
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:20 PM
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Um... he lays down in the third one in complete submission, asking her to stop pulling on him... HOW is he aggro?


(still reading OP but.. wow..)
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:33 PM
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And, since when have dogs peed in aggression?

I think cesar needs to do some episodes on how to handle SUBMISSIVE DOGS, because I have encountered MANY and they need the exact opposite of all of this! If everyone thinks all dog problems are because of aggression/dominance, they aren't going to be doing dogs any favors. I'm tired of him treating all dogs like they have the same problem!!!!!
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:38 PM
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so this ancient brick of a computer had a heart attack when I tried to play them. So no videos for me, probably better that way, my head would probably expode.

whats funny to me about the whole "pack walk" and the rules of the dog must heel or they are vying for rank is there actually are groups of feral dogs by my house, and they, first of all are certainly not what i'd describe as a pack ...members come and go, like the fleeting friendships decribed in pretty much every feral population around the globe....and second...its virtually impossible to tell who is the "leader" they take turns walking in front and no one seems offended by it. I still don't grasp how people can insist that dogs are rigid heirarchy pack animals that are constantly trying to overthrow the leader.

I'll often park my car and observe them, they look like a group of animals scavenging, or running away (if they spot me) I have never observed any "dominance rituals" in either the feral dogs or my group of five at home.

What I have observed in other dogs (usually at the dog park) are frustrated dogs, reactive dogs and dog with little to no social skills interacting and then those behaviors being labeled "dominant".

would you call a child that acted out in class dominant? God no. But people do it to dogs all day long.

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Old 01-10-2010, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TegansMyBoy View Post
Um... he lays down in the third one in complete submission, asking her to stop pulling on him... HOW is he aggro?


(still reading OP but.. wow..)
In the third video, she's pulling and pulling him - he]s wearing a muzzle and that damn illusion collar. The dog sits - probably with the intention to stop her aggression - she keeps pulling on him. The dog eventually collapses on the floor showing he is not a threat and there is no reason for her actions. The idiot stops jerking the dog for a second to pull the tail out. She then continues jerking the dog when he gets up ans she continues to jerk him.
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