Cesar Milan - is he really a horrible person?

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Cesar Milan - is he really a horrible person?

This is a discussion on Cesar Milan - is he really a horrible person? within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; I personally do not think so. He is not telling the public to use his methods only and always recommends seeking a professional to assess ...

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Old 03-24-2010, 10:24 AM
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Cesar Milan - is he really a horrible person?

I personally do not think so. He is not telling the public to use his methods only and always recommends seeking a professional to assess the dog. I have watched his shows, I have even watched clips where people say he crossed a boundary and half the time I personally do not agree he has.

Should his methods be used the second a dog shows behavior problems? No, to me its a last resort method approach and not a bad one.

Please dont just post a clip and say "watch this, how is this ok"'. Instead maybe enlighten me on WHAT he is doing wrong and how you think it could be corrected.
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Old 03-24-2010, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
is he really a horrible person?
Yes.

THE DOG WHISPERER CONTROVERSY

I will respond with more later.
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:26 AM
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That looks like an amazing read. TY for posting it. I have classes soon so will read it later on tonight.

Dont get me wrong some of his situations I would not use, but little training methods I see him use, I see other trainers (and not petsmart trainers) use. But again, for example corrections, are only for last resort cases, which I have had to use, and those that did not work were never used again. I am still currently having behavioral issues with one of my dogs and am trying to determine what next step to take.
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:45 AM
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I personally really like him.

I do see him doing anything wrong??

He diesnt hurt or harmt he animals, so whats so bad?
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:16 PM
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hahaha...do you really want me to answer that?


short answer...is the man evil, no.

Do I wish people would stop emulating and worshiping him. Yes.

do I think there are waaay better trainers, yes.

Those "untrainable" dogs...are not untrainable. By any means. I think most of the dogs on his show don't even come close to needing force.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RinzzoLove View Post
I personally really like him.

I do see him doing anything wrong??

He diesnt hurt or harmt he animals, so whats so bad?
He absolutely hurts and harms dogs, he bases his *training* on flawed pack/wolf theroy (admitted flawed by the researches that did it btw) i.e alpha rolls and dominance.

He also has a 67% failure rate. He gets bit all the time, no good trainer ever gets bit, even working with truely aggressive dogs.

He bullies and uses force. If he was so great why would so many educated and well known behaviourals and trainers be so against him?

Dr. N. Dodman, head of the Animal Behavioual Clinic and Research at Tuff's University, wrote a letter to the National Geo (you can read it on line) telling them if they continued with this program and CM methods that it would put dog training BACK 20 yrs.

CM uses Flooding as his main method along with hanging dogs.

Anyone watching the program, that has knowledge in canine body language see's dogs giving appeasment behaviours.

And as an instructor myself, I get calls all the time from people who have watched the show, read his books and tried the methods. I always ask them how it is working for them..........same response everytime, its not and my dog is worse.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:37 PM
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A few more articles...

The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan
'Dog Whisperer' Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful
http://www.dogforum.com/dog-behavior...ge3/#post48385 <--Video and my response

When I first started training Snickers I watched his show and didn't see anything wrong with it. Then I read articles about training, read posts on this and other forums, read books, and watch It's Me or the Dog. Now I know that Cesar is not a good trainer and has no idea of what he is doing or what he is talking about. The thing that I can't stand about him is that everything the dog does is an attempt at dominating the owner or trying to become the pack leader. The idea that a dog is afraid or fearful never crosses his mind. He never thinks that a dog doesn't know what we want it to do and jerking the hell out of the chain is not the most effective way to train.

I used to think Victoria Stilwell (It's Me or the Dog) just dealt with easy cases, but this season she has dealt with so called "red zone" dogs and her methods work! I would love to see a Cesar fail with a dog and see Victoria fix the issues.

Every time I talk to someone about training I say watch "It's Me or the Dog" and don't watch "The Dog Whisperer".
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:45 PM
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He's not a "horrible" person, butů

His training methods aren't based on any kind of research or success. It's based on what works for him and what he thinks (with no education or training in dog behavior), and it isn't very effective – especially for beginners who know nothing about dog training or dog behavior and try to emulate him. I don't know if the 67% figure that AdoJrts states is correct, but I'd believe it.

From past posts on this subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Criosphynx View Post
…the methods he use work for different reasons than he says. For example the alpha roll works simply because its an aversive, not because "this is what dogs do" (they don't).

Taking a dog thats fearful, or fixated, and correcting them until they shut down, obviously is not the best way to go.
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Originally Posted by borzoimom View Post
One is his jab he does. In some breeds it would work against you (sighthounds for example or toys or some herding breeds). This would considered an intrustion- not distraction.

His treatment for shy dogs or dogs afraid or defensive aggressive towards a thing or a person is outragious. Its called "flooding," i.e. to excess.
He says he has control of his dogs when in fact they need too much invention, dependant on too much constant thinking on the owner's part. That tells me the dogs are actually not really settled. This is even more evident by the times he has been bit. He obviously does not understand a dog knows also when you are not paying attention, and if they need that attention for control, all they have to do is wait for an opportunity.

And to elaborate more on the exercise comment- I probably would not fight either if I were exhausted, but that did not teach me anything. And only getting me more and more in condition requiring more and more exercise to reach that "calm submissive level" he calls it- to get to that plane...
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Originally Posted by Criosphynx View Post
you can't fix aggression with aggression. Numerous studies show that "correcting" aggression results in the handler getting attacked. Or the behavior reappearing somewhere else. Not all dogs take this crap lying down. In fact I have seen Cesar bitten more times than I can remember when a dog refuses to shut down.



As an owner you have to ask yourself why use a method that is hard on the dog when there are better ways? His methods are like killing an ant with an elephant gun.
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Originally Posted by borzoimom View Post
He had a previous set of clients. And each had multiple dogs for him to come train their dogs to get along- they come- they tape the show- we are left with the impression all is fine now.. Except- several months later or the next season later, he comes back to the same clients (people) to help them pick out a dog at a shelter because the other dog was later put down due to aggression... So tell me this was a fix??? All he did when he was there the first time was cap the dynamite or cool the blasting oil- it did NOT solve THE problem!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Criosphynx View Post
[But I do agree that if you can use PR and it works why wouldn't you use that.]

Time. That's the only GOOD reason. Aversives work faster (if done right).

If a dog was facing [euthanasia] if its behavior is not "fixed" in day, that's a different story. But for the average pet, theres no reason IMO.
And having worked with a reactive, high-strung dog myself, I can tell you now that aversives did not work with him. I initially started training him with minor aversives (loud noises and leash corrections for undesired behavior) and it made him WORSE. I could have continued using corrections with him, but he had nipped me several times (hard enough to bruise/draw blood) when he was really aroused, and using PR and clicker training was way more effective than introducing him to situations I knew he couldn't handle, and then giving him a lot of corrections.

Last edited by seebrown; 03-24-2010 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:48 PM
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well, everyone has there own opinions.
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Old 03-24-2010, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by RinzzoLove View Post
well, everyone has there own opinions.
I am curious, did you even read the links provided? As sad as it is, that is the typical response of those pro CM when provided with proof of why his methods are dangerous and shouldn't be used.
I picture people with their fingers stuck in their ears, going na na na I can't hear you! Sadly, they don't listen to their dogs either or understand them.
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