Dog shows and breeding (kind of long)

Criosphynx

Um....when you talked about selecting for cancer free dogs you meant PB dogs...but when i discuss that you are limiting the gene pool.... you bring up outcrossing?? That makes no sence... unless you are breeding mutts that are screened for cancer...

If you are selecting for desireable traits within a breed you are in a closed gene pool and you are further closing it by only allowing "healthy" dogs into the breeding program. Which may be het for a trait you don't want, which in the closed pool, will eventually express itself. Like I said before, purebred dogs, without outcrossing are pretty doomed.

and yes natural selection works. I don't get whats romantic about it...its how the planet as always worked. Animals with useful mutations survived and defective ones died. I trust nature to produce health over man anyday. When genetic mapping for defects is the NORM I might reconsider.

Salukis are still bred this way and they have basically ZERO health problems. Greyhound breeding, has a similar premise, only the dog that survives moves on to breed. Not the pretty dog, the best dog.

I breed snakes, I understand all the principles, just with a different group of animals. You MUST outcross at minimum every fourth generation to maintain vigor IMO

ChathamHillKennels

I meant to end the above with... The editing system has an admin lockout so sorry for the followup post. "If natural selection were a good thing, you WOULDN't see naturalists struggling with how to save the African Wild dog from extinction. When the population is too small to rebound then extinction is inevitable."

pawzaddict

You are right, my point was exactly what has been shown. I am happy a couple breeders have responded as well as rescuers. TY for all the responses and opinions.

ChathamHillKennels

You are referencing a lot research specific to plants. Not animals. Hybrid Vigor. This is much more involved than what you're understanding is.

pawzaddict

The African Wild Dog is decreasing in numbers due to human encroachment...this has NOTHING to do with the natural selection in genetics... Conservation efforts are strictly done when a species has become endangered or threatened due to us....

"The Shrinking Pack
African wild dogs were once common in virtually every environment in southern Africa except rain forests and deserts. But human encroachment has drastically reduced their range and their numbers. Because of land clearance, urbanization, and other factors, Africa's once-great herds of grazing animals are now restricted to scattered populations in parks and reserves. As their prey goes, so go the dogs. They are also widely regarded as pests; they've been poisoned, shot, and trapped in many areas. Perhaps their most serious threat, though, is introduced diseases. Burgeoning human populations have brought the African wild dogs into frequent contact with domestic dogs, many of which carry canine distemper and rabies. These diseases are ravaging the wild packs. This kind of contact is one of the less obvious ways that human populations disrupt wild populations. "

Great website AMNH - Expedition : Endangered

Mikey

Actually no, and I'm trying to cool the debate down. There is tons of research in animals-like I said I have a BSc with a minor in genetics. I can certainly pull some articles for you if you'd like, but like I said I think it's getting heated in here!

Can we all debate without getting personal or taking things personal? Please!

I'm not picking sides, if you read my posts. I do believe in responsible breeders and I'm sure you are one.

I do find it really offensive that your calling my 'understanding' of genetics into question though. I do have a degree in it...

pawzaddict

wow... so because we took the class we don't know anything about genetics? This is getting silly

Criosphynx

this is flawed in two ways.

One human encroachment has affected this species.

Two perhaps this species CANT adapt to the planet anymore and so nature is weeding out a species that can't adapt...which IS natural selection.

What happens if the species rebounds? where will it live? The world has changed and this species place is gone. We created that, but a change in climate could have just as easily created that.

I don't see anyone crying over procompsognathus disapearing. No one will cry over AWD in a few million years either. Species come and go.


ETA you can have hybrid vigor in animals...if the gene for a defect has mutated you will need two copies of the mutated gene for the animal to be homozygous....if you have a defect gene and a mutant defect gene you simply get double hets.

ChathamHillKennels

What you say applies to limited populations, such as rare breeds. If you take an example of Labrador Retrievers which have over 200,000 dogs registered annually the populations alone can support selective breeding for health and breeding away from cancer or whatever. Even in a closed registry. A rare breed like a Flat Coated retriever that only has 600 dogs registered annually has a lesser chance of rebounding from careful selective breeding to get away from these defects. Thus in a closed registry, the eventual demise of the breed is inevitable without some outcrossing with another breed to build up the diversity above endangered species levels.

Genetic vigor research applies to PLANTS. for Animals it is more complicated than you understand at the moment.

ChathamHillKennels

The population as it exists was decimated by an introduction of a virus that is spread through the dogs natural tendencies to mouth each other upon returning to denning areas. It is literally almost caused the extinction of these dogs. The population as it is cannot rebound from this. Please get your facts completely straight before beginning an arguement.

If natural selection had worked for these dogs.... then even in times when humans encroach upon their environment they would adapt. much like coyotes adapt or bobcats etc.etc.

They are a protected species and are still not rebounding.