Dog shows and breeding (kind of long)

pawzaddict

Ok, I was in bed not feeling so hot yesterday morning and caught the last half of a dog show (I do enjoy watching these sometimes). I guess I want to post this because I want to hear other opinions about the two things (breeding and showing). Let me be honest first by saying I used to hate dog shows because of the unnatural requirements of some breeds, such as docking tails and cropping ears and stripping coats, then realized these breeds had those standards when it was originally used for hunting, herding, etc for different safety issues. However, is it not true that cropped ears only allow for more debris to enter inside the ear? I have also heard that dogs with "floppy" ears get more ear infections because it traps dirt.

The other thing I have seen that I cannot stand is overclipping the nails to get them to the "show standard length". I do not care if people say dogs do not feel it, they have some kind of reaction when they are quicked and that is enough for me to do not do it on purpose to an animal, if you have neglected to keep your dogs nails that short for show thats your own fault (if this is false info on standard nail length then I just feel down right sad for the dog I watched go through this because of that "reason").

Finally breeding... I want to know the real process a breeder of a "show quality" dog goes through. Before breeding, during gestation, and after the puppies are born (both to the mother, father, and pups). TY ahead of time

pawzaddict

I just looked at another post and found a link regarding to over breeding and inbreeding of pedigree dogs...This only reconfirms my issues with breeders....a judge for dog shows admitted to breeding a grandfather with a granddaughter....how the heck is this excusable? Genetics is genetics..people or animals. I want to know as well when breeders say they have genetic tests done, why do you not realize just because two parents are healthy and show no problems it is possible for an offspring to have an issue (maybe not as common, but can still happen).

Criosphynx

I had never heard of the nail thing....YIKES


I don't know much about the show world but I do personally think its silly. And thats my nice way of saying it.

Have you watched the BBC documentary on purebred dogs? Its on youtube in 6 or so parts...

I have mixed feelings about linebreeding. I own linebred animals (snakes) and have bred related animals. But Reptiles certainly are not at a level where linebreeding is an issue YET. I don't really like the idea in dogs tho...and its the same concept...isolate desireable traits...it just seesm so double edged in dogs tho...you get the structure you want, but the eye problems you don't want...the dogs are so inbred you just can't win anymore.

Many wild populations of many species are closely related due to barriers in terrain...so this does happen in nature.

Not trying to defend PB dog breeding practices . Im not a fan of PB dogs personally and seeing what the last 100 years have done to som' of these breeds...well...yikes again.

pawzaddict

The bbc thing is what I watched lol. It was posted on another topic on the forum here. I was shocked to see the GSD issue, that was clearly noticable. I also have NEVER heard of the issue with the little king charles spaniels. It just goes to show that people have bred pets with issues even before noticing these issues.

Wild animal inbreeding does happen but not as often as you would think. Dispersal of males occurs in most species to keep this from happening. Few species stick around and the effects of inbreeding are not as obvious as those in dogs, cats and humans. But yes it does occur and when it happens a lot of genetic effects occur (albinos, more body parts, etc).

I really hate hearing "I love the breed so much that is why I breed". To me if you love an animal you won't over breed it or put it through such turmoil just to get pups, you also won't inbreed it. I worked for a vet who had a client that bred st bernards, she would over breed her female until she had internal bleeding or just put her bitches down when they could not physically take having another litter. so sad

Criosphynx

Oh my....poor Saint Bernard

I guess I was refering mostly to reptiles. There are many snakes that the entire species is confined to small areas.

Yeah the king charles spaniel thing....wow..just wow huh? I think thats the most popular small breed in the UK

Yeah," I breed because I love the breed.... "

*sigh*

No matter the quality of pups you produce I don't understand how a one can ignore the over population issue.

Back to snakes LOL....Thats why I don't breed ball pythons...the amount of unwanted Ball pythons is staggering...sure I could breed the desireable morphs...and then rationalize that its not MY snakes being discarded. Breeders use that line all the time...MY DOGS aren't the discarded ones...

pawzaddict

Ah yes I do not know much about reptiles but do know there are reptiles which have very small living quarters! I wonder...does inbreeding not effect offspring of reptiles? I thought the 2 headed snakes and turtles and whatnot were due to inbreeding or bad genes. hmmmmm might be something fun to research!

I cannot stand this overpopulation issue!!!!! I also cannot stand how breeders think its ok for MUTTS (which btw typically live longer and have less diseases than pb, I would know, all of my pets in life have extended the typical age of pb) to be euthanized because they are mutts and are not "as high of quality" I guess I do not understand the mentality. Then to require contracts stating the new owners of the pups will not breed....wtf is that, double standard much? (I know not all of them do it but it does happen)

BTW my vet turned the woman away when she brought in a perfectly healthy st bernard bitch to be put down.

Criosphynx

Its the human obsession with perfection. I personally don't understand it. Its the same with material things, people want name brands and fancy cars. Its ingrained into us.



The double heads in reptiles are simply conjoined twins. Its extreeeeeemly rare that they survive.

Twins are very common in reptiles, I've seen many conjoined twins, but none were viable.

Also incubation temperatures affect development...you could have babies that are genetically sound...but are born with birth defects...because they were incubated to hot (too cold ussually just kills the embryo) For example cornsnakes are often born with "incubation kinks" and go on to produce normal babies... or the second clutch of eggs from the same pairing (incubated properly) will have no kinked babies.

Boa constrictors and vipers are live birth (so momma snakes regulates the temperature) and I've never, not once, seen birth defects in live born snakes. A few preemies tho.

Reptile breeding is still in its infancy compared to dogs. Im sure after 100 years of linebreeding there will be issues in reptiles too...

Linebreeding is not the problem if its done right and not constantly...you have to keep in mind that purebred dogs are "closed" and you can't outcross...with exotic animals you can always bring in a wild collected animal to outcross to. Thus you can line breed for four or more generations (not that I recommend that lol) and then outcross to new blood and get genetically sound animals (am I making sence)

I think PB dogs would be in WAAAY better shape if outcrossing was allowed. Since if not these breeds will continue to slowly widdle away their genetic diversity and nature will ultimately decide that its had enough

There are people already speculating that this genetically can't go on for much longer. They believe that Dogs are going to start to be born sterile and that many breeds in the pure form will die out. It sounds like a reasonable theory to me.

pawzaddict

AGREED! I would not mind never having another PB dog. The out breeding thing did make sense (we learned about out breeding in animal behavior) It is part of dispersal lol. Of course you always have the chance of that dispersing males offspring dispersing back to the original colony and breeding with a relative (but this rarely occurs!). I still hope a breeder and show person (? LOL) respond with their opinion

labby

Where to start.....dog shows are just that, where people show off their breeding stock. We show to show others, and ourselves, whether or not our dogs conform to the written standard for that breed.

A grandfather to granddaughter is really not inbreeding. It's called a linebreeding. Generally, that type of breeding you have only one common ancestor. If you know your dog's pedigree well, you can do that type of breeding to bring forward the traits those two possess. If you don't know your pedigree well, you could be bringing forward undesirable traits.

Knowing your pedigree before ANY breeding is essential.

Genetics are a crap shoot in all animals, including humans. When we deal with genes, we have to realize that stuff can happen. Does that mean that nobody should breed? (I'm including humans in this) Of course not. Again, you do the genetic tests that you can and try to make the best decisions you can based on them.

Reputable breeders do not guarantee that nothing will happen. They can't. They aren't God. What a reputable breeder will do is care and help their puppy people as much as they can WHEN a problem arises. Notice I said when. If you breed long enough, something is always going to pop up. It's inevitable.

There are all types of breeders, some good some bad. Just like there are all types of pet owners, some good some bad. I think we all can agree that the St. Bernard breeder wasn't the norm and wasn't a good one.

I've never lost a female from having a litter. If I had to choose between the female and the puppies, I would choose the mom and lose the puppies. Thankfully, I've never had to make that decision.

I have Labs so I don't have to worry about docking, stripping or cropping ears.

pawzaddict

Can you tell I have NEVER bred nor bought from a breeder either LOL. I guess a big question that runs through my head is why do I hear many breeders insult mutts, and also right now in this horrible economy when hundreds of thousands of dogs are going to pounds and losing their lives, WHY are breeders breeding?! I do not think there is an excuse I would accept to be honest, I am not trying to be rude...just honest. Dogs are dying, even cats at high rates and its depressing...then you get someone posting up puppies for sale!!! Why? To me, this is the work of selfish breeders...MONEY MONEY MONEY is what I see when I see this.