ChathamHillKennels

Well look at it this way. Penn Hip tests will fail many dogs that pass OFA. OFA testing has been done for generations and there has been very little improvement. So clearly OFA which are not genetic test, but physical inspections and x-rays, don't work. Yet some breeders as my vet has told me will fail on Penn Hip tests and clearly should not breed their animal yet they then just pass on an OFA and go ahead and breed anyway.

These tests clearly don't guarantee anything, except that your dog can pass them. If there were clear DNA markers to check for then you can say for certain this dog or that one is truly clear or a carrier of the defect. For now the best thing going is a Penn Hip test for dysplasia. But obviously without this being a strict guideline the majority of breeders will continue with OFA tests that haven't improved much over the years in terms of lowering the occurrences of these defects in more litters.

The Film seemed pretty clear to me. It's also clear that old habits don't die easy. There is no way to stop an old school breeder from continuing their practices unless they pass away and their children don't pick up the torch. Until that happens all across the board its up to new age breeders to continue fixing things one litter at a time. If there is a show driven breeder who knows they have a defect in there stud or bitch, the only thing stopping them from breeding is a good personal ethic. Without it, they can damn well breed their dog to whomever they feel will net them a big score for more champions.

By the way, I was at the Allentown Show last weekend. We went over to the GSD ring just to confirm what we already knew..... yup, all gaits were ataxic and all dogs were stooped over grotesquely. Who the hell breeds for a dog that walks landing almost on their rear knees? That's not normal. As well as several other breeds having some wild abnormalities.

This movie might be loved by PETA, but they didn't fund it. If PETA had it their way all purebreds would be ended yesterday. This documentary was directed to me by some pretty accomplished breeders and historians of the dog fancier world who are very concerned that changes need to happen. Not by PETA. You guys should just sit down and watch it for a bit. listen to it and compare it to what you know already. Poodles are not deformed by their standards and are still very game dogs in the field and show in conformation pretty much as they do in the field. As it stands there are not many dogs that do that anymore. Goldens are now these big beefy course lumbering teddy bear dogs. Nothing like the field goldens. They are increasingly more aggressive and have terrible genetic defects. It's even worse for Labradors. And these are just a couple of examples. the list goes on and on.


And SIvaro..... These defects don't show most times in the specimens, that's why a dog with bad hips can still be presented and do well. One breeder at the show I was at was showing her Spinoni. She even told me it had cracked its hips in three locations. Yet, there she was showing it. As such since most dogs are stoic animals and don't show their pain, it's easy for them to pass as sound when presented for conformation. And for someone looking to grab the best stud or bitch for their own dogs.... well the rest isn't difficult to figure out. That's where the breeding purely for cosmetic concerns before health concerns comes into play.

Sivaro

CHK, dont pass the buck onto all breeders. FFS, most of us are doing the right thing by our breeds and would never ever keep going on with a line that had problems. I dont know whats happening in your country but here MOST of us are doing the right thing except what we call farmers or backyarders.

Am I taking what you say personally, hell yes. I do many outside dogs here for grooming, mostly crossbred mongrels. Cant say there is too many that dont come in with major problems. I always know when they have hip, patella problems. It not hard to not notice. You feel it clicking everytime you lift a leg. I always know when a back is out, know when a dog has cancer. I pick many things out that isnt seen to most ppls eyes.

You think I would breed from anything remotely close to what you are talking about? You dont know me well at all, to know me you would know my strict guidelines of what I would and wouldnt breed and what I would and wouldnt touch. I cant stand ppl that hate reg'd breeders, pass all the blame onto the breeders who have forked out more money than they bring in and have so many years experience on the lines they have created. Dont you dare come on here and say we are ruining things when we are doing the best we possibly can for the betterment of the breed.

Wow, perhaps you better check out what happens to most mutts out there. If that example is what you are looking for, its high time you got yourself a better set of glasses.

ChathamHillKennels

I didn't say anywhere all breeders or you were guilty. In fact I did say most breeders, because it is true. I did say it was other breeders (obviously concerned and responsible) that gave me that link. And I did say there are some breeds which are exceptions to the cosmetic factor because they show the same way they work in the field. I can't see anywhere you should take it personally.

In fact if the dogs you are grooming aren't yours, its difficult to claim that these owners will not breed them at any point in time.

Outcrosses were the staple of how we came to every breed we see today. Your poodle didn't just happen. It took generations and even centuries of crossbreeding for purpose and temperament before you got the results you see today. All purebred dogs are essentially born from mutts and at one time were all called mongrels. As a breeder you should know this, and understand that many times throughout history dogs were outcrossed to improve them. This is difficult to do today since most registries are closed. But occasionally when there is a breed that comes to the brink of extinction because of the old school ways.... it would benefit the breed to outcross. Otherwise what was left will just go extinct since so many defects wouldn't warrant breeding. So either you do the right thing, or continue breeding from the defective pool remaining.

Or if greed is the driving factor or if the "champion" bug is the motivating factor, who's to say that these breedings don't happen. If anything good came of this documentary... it certainly opens your eyes to at least question the status quo. And to at least reflect upon whether there is anything that can be done to reverse it. And to look towards your own Kennel clubs to put the best interests of the breeds before cosmetic concerns.

A healthier dog in the case of many breeds actually means changing those conformation standards. If you know any ridgeback breeders in your area... ask them what they do to the ridgeless puppies. They are an example of a dog bred for a serious defect in order to meet those conformation standards.

If the problem was isolated to just mutts you wouldn't see so many purebred dogs in the shelters..... poodles are pretty popular there. So are all the toy breeds. And then the popular larger breeds are in there as well. Saw a GSD rescue at the vet last month, along with a Golden and countless labs and Cockers. I'd say they just get recycled quicker than most mixes. But obviously if we open our eyes to this..... shelters are not dominated with mix bred dogs. Its just the rarer breeds that avoid that mess because the breeding populations are very controlled.

ChathamHillKennels

And Sivaro...

I think maybe you didn't read through my entire post before, or you would clearly understand the shortcomings of OFA tests. If a dog passes it also doesn't mean that those physical defects won't present afterwards. Those test have become more a formality than a control. Seeing as how you're from a family of geneticists.... I would think you more than anyone else would be aware of such things. My sister is a Genetic Scientist working for DNA research here in the U.S. We are close and therefore what she knows.... I know. And clearly I'm not fooled by most of what the status quo accepts today. If these accepted measures worked. Then these defects would be less prevalent in all breeds. And Cancer would be on a decline, not a rise.

Sivaro

Oh I read everything loud and clear. When you mention breeders as such, "breeders" like myself can be lumped into the same basket and take great offence at your post.

The crossbreds that come in for grooming arent breeding dogs, they are desexed (thankfully), I think in 10 yrs I have only had a few maltese shih tzu crosses come here that the ppl were breeding from. The underbites they produced were horrific, the patellas were graded 4 (extremely bad) The temperaments were shy to fear aggressive. I warned these ppl not to do it but they did. The poor bitch also gave birth in the backyard, thus having pups all over the place. First litter was 6, 4 survived. Second litter 6 and 5 survived. 3rd litter only one survived. Bastards done back to back to back matings.

As for my breed and many others, yes they were the result of crossbreedings. And yes it took many generations to get to the perfection that they were looking for. But we all know, no breed or x breed are perfect, I would love to see a dog on earth that is perfect. Not possible. There are dogs with faults, bad traits, genetic issues and regardless how anyone thinks they can possibly breed these imperfections out are kidding themselves. I have always said if it was there in the past it just waiting to rear its ugly head again. Does this mean the breeder is at fault cause it will arise, no!!! Unless ppl are going to start being honest and there is documents on each and every dog in the world you wont know what you are breeding and who you are breeding it to. Just because things can be 30 generations away, does not mean it wont come back.

Science is also not perfect. My friend bought a dog from the states, he was tested to only ever be able to breed black and white. He mostly did, then one brown come. My friend rang her friend in the states and hello, 32 gererations ago her first foundation bitch was a brown. So even tests really arent a guarantee of what you will or wont get, and if bad genetics will crop up again. All we can do is our best but unfortunately the crystal ball will not work.

Personally I would love the see a human that is a better example than the dogs that we breed. I find more faults in humans than dogs

On that note, I must go to bed, its 12.30am here and I havnt had much shut eye in a week.

ChathamHillKennels

Good point Sivaro. There are always exceptions to the status quo. And then you aren't lumped in with "MOST BREEDERS".

Genetics is a funny thing. When selective breeding is involved... you actually can breed away those problems. It just takes breeders willing to do so. And time, and DNA markers so we know better than what a physical test provides us. If Genetic tests were available as opposed to the standard OFA procedures your friend would have had better results I'm sure.

Humans are a poor example since selective breeding is not our lot in life ;-) Which is why dogs have an advantage over us. There is a cure for cancer in dogs. As well as other genetic defects. Breeders just have to realize that a change in the process is required.

Rest well, tomorrow is a better day.

ChathamHillKennels

Also...
Most breeders are doing what the status quo says is responsible. And yes OFA testing shows a measure of being responsible. But, clearly since these dated tests are not a guarantee, something better is needed, and if something better is available such as the Pen Hip tests, then why not use that as the new measure. Like I said, breeders who fail on the Pen Hip test, just get an OFA clearance than breed anyway, so how is that being responsible. Lineage checks going back as far as possible beyond the standard 3 or 4 generations is more responsible than an OFA test today and should be required as well.