Agility vid

Criosphynx

no worries I like discussing this stuff...I find it facinating as well.

I think how much you can change depends on the dog...I have seen dogs take hard corrections VERY well, and dogs take light corrections like its the end of the world, I think soft temprament dogs will have a harder time than hard temprament dogs. Because, in theory, the softer dogs are more fearful of corrections for offering. While a hard dog, who didn't take the corrections *personal* in the first place might not be as afraid of "messing up"...messing up being offering.

I think she CAN get it....just like I could learn japanese eventually if I hear it enough....its just such a huge uphill battle....

I enjoy the thrown behaviors as well, the great majority of the time.

whats interesting is she will throw behaviors I have taught her through showing her...but she wont make things up like Tippy and Chili do.

Once you teach a dog targeting you can pretty much show them anything you want them to do. So I use targeting to move her around..

for example the agility trainer wanted her to free shape going to a mat....well unless the mat is at my feet she isn't going to pay any attention to it....the trainer INSISTED I give no directions and just stand still....the mat was three feet behind her....she stared a hole in my head.


so at home...I simply pointed at the mat....reward on the mat, stop rewarding off the mat...then ask for sits on the mat (since she will not offer) then ask for downs, then down stays....

seriously in two minutes I could tell her "go to your mat" she would go to it and auto down and then stay until released. I honestly was pissed at that point because I knew I was wasting my money on the trainer.

Som' trainers feel that if the dog figures it out on their own that the behavior will *stick* better...personally I don't know how I feel about that...but I must admit 99% of Chilis behaviors are offered or shaped behaviors, I chose to train him that way to see if it is a superior way, but I still haven't formed a solid opinion on it yet. For example, Chili will decide he doesn't like the trick Iam asking for and will throw the tricks he likes...he also gets bored and frustrated faster, but its impossible to say if its the dog, the dogs age, the training style, the trainer, or whatever...

oooo I love this stuff...ask me more...lol

fawkese1

ok...you asked for it
what do you do for confidence building? do you use a "target-hold" cue when targeting? have you ever used multiple targets at once? what is the most complicated behavior/behavior chain you have trained and how did you train it? when you are training, why are you training...what is your motivation? what is your biggest training failure? and were you able to correct it? what about accomplishment? why? do you think we should start a new thread for this discussion?

i think that the "sticking" better idea has some merit to it, but i don't know either...i do know that i like training this way better....but anyway, i don't think that it is that the dog necessarily learns it better or whatever...i think it has much more to do with the trainer's perception than the dog itself...and this type of training seems much more flexible in how to get to the goal than more traditional methods...ie to teach sit you can use a target/lure/capture etc but traditional methods almost always say to pull up on the head and push down on the rump....it also seems like there is less chance of messing the dog up this way...does all that make sense

on a side note...my cocker spaniel, who i had when i was a kid, was a genius...she knew soooo many behaviors from basic obedience to parlor tricks...she cleaned up all of her toys from the floor and put them in her toy box when i told her "clean up"....she would bring me her leash w/o a cue when she wanted a walk or with a cue when i wanted a walk....she would bring me stuff that was dropped on the floor when asked her....jumping over stuff and crawling under it....really she could do almost anything i could think of....she had a few issues that i think i would have been able to deal with way better now than before but all in all, she was one of those dogs that only took one or two sessions and the behavior was solid...sometimes, like picking up her toys, i only had to show her once....anyway to point is that i wasn't using this sort of training with her and those behaviors stuck pretty darn well

Criosphynx

hahah.. I think we need a new thread...Iam going to move this lol

AdoJrts

Again coming in late but

My experiences with agility instructors has been completely different, but it very could be that I quickly dropped trainers because I have a strong history of teaching and training with horses. Therefore it doesn't take much to weed out a bad trainer.
I also train with different trainers, nothing works better for me that to switch trainers and pick up bits and pieces from each of them.

I have attended or had working spots in many different seminars over the years. I seek out trainers/seminars with methods that I am not very familiar with because why would a person just continue on with only one method? When it can only be expanded so much?

I know a lot of agility trainers, either those that are friends, those that I have trained with or those that I compete against. We talk a lot about different methods, most of them are always very open to at least listening to any method that will work and sharing ideas. (but not all lol)

One of my friends is a very successful trainer, she has well over 450 students, has put over a 100 Titles on many different dogs/breeds/mixes, has done everything from obedience/rally to agility but loves agility and behavioural work (yes is certified). Her own personal dogs tend to be hard case rescues or dogs deemed 'untrainable'. She trains every dog from a behavioural level and never to any one method of training.

Crio, one thing that sticks out in my mind, when you are target training, how are you do this? Nose touchs, Paw touches, baited target? Will she touch the target more than once before you reward her?

Lynn

Criosphynx

I teach them to target with their nose and it is a shaped behavior so there is no lure.. Emma will probably touch a target up to three times before trying som'thing else

and yes...LOL this thread is ancient haha I forgot all about it.

AdoJrts

Ok, now I am really confused. Maybe I should re-read the thread again along with downing more coffee. lol

For target training for agility, I don't want them to offer other behaviours, except to offer continued nose touches until released and then rewarded.
For the purpose of sending to and holding a contact critria or working on distance or lateral skills.
What is your purpose for target training?

I am confused on two fronts, 1st is your targeting and 2nd if she will offer behaviours for targeting, why should any other shaping exercises like 101 things be any different?

Lol, please clarify so my mind can be a ease

Criosphynx

lol...she wanted me to free shape going to a mat. Which IMO was the longest, hardest most confusing way to teach that task to that particular dog.


she wanted me to put a mat on the floor and give no istructions and wait for my dog to go to the mat and sit on it...all with no eye contact. This particular dog is a crossover dog and does VERY poorly at free shaping and likes to have som' guidance.

yeah, if you read the whole thread I think I cover it ok, if you need clarification just let me know.

this is what I use targeting for..

YouTube - Chili demonstrating targeting.

to move the dog around. I can also say "touch" and have them touch my hand...I can transfer the touch to an object also.

let me clarify. To teach it I hold out my hand...and since thats wierd...my dogs will go to sniff it...so i click and treat. There is never a lure.


like incorrect behaviors? Not sure what your asking
its not...but this particular dog after almost three years, still can't grasp that game very well, or dare I say...at all. Without instructions, she offers her default behavior (stare and sit) if you reward anything else (like if you wait for a glance away or a sneeze for example) she will take the reward and then go back to her default. She still hasn't made the connection that she is making the click happen, if that makes sense, my clicker dogs will get clicked and then repeat what they just did, she will not in a free shaping scenario...BUT if its som'thing she knows, she will repeat...or if the cue is unclear she will throw known behaviors...but she doesn't create things if that makes sense

AdoJrts

Ok, got it now.

Agreed, far to difficult a task of how she wanted you to free shape the mat, silly actually and could have been done so much easier. You could try capturing it.

Clear now on the targeting issue as well. I know what you are doing as a hand touch and not as a target. A target to me is a disk or small mat (that can be made smaller and then faded) that the dog nose touches or paw touches. A hand touch brings them to us or repositions them, where as a target teaches the dog to move away from us, nose touch and wait for a release.

Cheers.

Criosphynx

new video of the agility chi

its a compalation, give it a moment for her turn

Dobergirl

Totally cute the first vid was. Not sure 'bout the second...