Agility vid

**fawkese1** · 10-16-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

thanks for that....

I agree...It seemed she knew "agility" and thats it...she also owned BCs and Corgis...Iam sure shes used to a faster learning curve.

I didn't traditionally train Emma...but its obvious she was corrected by her previous owners HEAVILY for offering behaviors. If she becomes confused with a command she shuts down, shes brilliant if you show her how to do it...but even now, Iam still not sure she understands what the clicker means...I'll click for a behavior and she doesn't make the connection that SHE made the click happen...she still thinks its random I think. My operant dogs will immediatly repeat the clicked behavior...she doesnt.

I was actually shocked she lost interest and walked away instead of shutting down. The whole time I was actually getting upset because I thought she was going to shut down because she didnt' know what I wanted.

wow, this is sooo interesting (poor emma, i bet she could've been one of those prodigy type dogs who practically do speak english if she'd had a better start

) ...anyway, in your opinion...do you think that you could reverse that sort of thing with her? what do you think it would take? do you think it would be worth the effort at this point?

EllensCreatures · 10-16-2009, 03:40 PM

There are some techniques you can use for "cross-over" dogs, ones that have been trained with "traditional" methods that you are re-training with the clicker, but they didn't work very for my sheltie (who I trained, BTW, before the clicker thing gained popularity, and she was a wonderful obedience dog). It's definitely a problem to get these dogs to offer behavior, they do get confused and then frustrated and bored.

**fawkese1** · 10-16-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EllensCreatures

There are some techniques you can use for "cross-over" dogs, ones that have been trained with "traditional" methods that you are re-training with the clicker, but they didn't work very for my sheltie (who I trained, BTW, before the clicker thing gained popularity, and she was a wonderful obedience dog). It's definitely a problem to get these dogs to offer behavior, they do get confused and then frustrated and bored.

such as????? sorry, i just really like to learn this stuff

so i'll bug anybody who talks about it.....

EllensCreatures · 10-16-2009, 05:01 PM

Hmm...I think it depends on what you are trying to train the dog to do...there was a clicker training book I was using, years ago, that had separate sections for cross-over dogs. Can't remember the title, I might still have it on my shelf at home.

**Criosphynx** · 10-16-2009, 06:23 PM

Like Ellen mentioned it can be done...

but its a horrendous uphill battle and the results arent' the same.

Emma is a wonderful wonderful dog...very very very good at what she knows...but you have to show her the behavior.. she will NEVER offer....free shaping is non existant...and even shaping is very very difficult with her...so far everything she knows is stuff I can physically show her...they get confused easy and then they immediately shut down. Once they shut down, forget it.

for example the box game....she will stare at me for EVER.. nothing and no amount of time will make her interact with the box....if you try to encourage her, she gets confused and shuts down...she offers nothing except behaviors shes learned with me already, or staring a hole in my head. If she looks away...I'll click...but she doesn't understand it was HER that made the click happen...she doesn't make the connection.

Mostly I've worked on building confidence...but its very hard, since even if you praise her for a second to long she will shut down, since she is confused by it. When we first brought her home, if you spoke to her, or walked towards her she would shut down...this HAS to be a trained responce IMO....Tippy shuts down...but its not human specific...that and tippy free shapes like a pro. You can walk up to Emma with a weed wacker on and she smiles at you...you tell her to "move" and she misses the cue and you say "move" again and shes a mess emotionally because shes unsure because she missed a cue.

honestly, at her age, Iam not bothering to retrain her to be operant as a goal. I have tried in the past and progress was minimal and quickly forgotten. This dog probably spent nearly a decade being hit and yelled at for offering behaviors, and thats a hard thing to get a dog to forget.

**fawkese1** · 10-16-2009, 06:46 PM

ok...so obviously with emma, not worth it , and that definately makes sense....let's say she were younger?...would that change your opinion? or do you think that she is just too far gone (sorry couldn't think how to put that ) for it to be worth it? by worth it i mean for the dog...btw

**fawkese1** · 10-16-2009, 06:56 PM

sorry, btw if i'm being annoying...

Mikey · 10-17-2009, 03:00 AM

Awww crio-that's too bad the instructor seemed stubborn (I guess 'seeming' is a nice way to put someone who ignored your email!!)

Even though we know the training principles, I think it's good to have an instructor, becasue they should be unbiased and can point out little bitty things you wouldn't notice...

I agree with Fawkese-SHARE more!!!

**Criosphynx** · 10-17-2009, 11:30 AM

hahah...well it depends...I mean...I can train her...just differently...

if i HAD to have elaborate behaviors that couldn't be done otherwise sure...

I really don't know the answer, part of me thinks it would just confuse her more.

I mean, there are times were NOT offering behaviors is superior...in fact that the number one thing traditional trainers complain about with clicker dogs...if they are confused they will start throwing behaviors at you. Not good for competition obediance...lol

Emma will come with called...off ANYTHING...with no proofing...no doubt because she thinks if she doesn't a correction will follow...so Em gets to get off leash ALOT...so in a way...its allowed her more freedom... ever seen how massively obediant a correctly trained e collar dog is? Thats her. But they are operating with you on a different level emotionally.

**fawkese1** · 10-17-2009, 12:51 PM

i think i just find emma interesting bc it is a learning how dogs learn sort of lesson for me....know what i mean?
actually i think it is fascinating with any animal...how much of the past conditioning can you counter or do you just leave them be and just manage them as they are?
i don't necessarily think that emma's situation needs to change...definately trust that you're making good decisions here

hope it doesn't seem otherwise

but i can't help but wonder "can it?" and again..."would trying to change it add distress to her life?" and the thing i'm most into "how would you go about it?"
confidence building is huge, i think that it's good training for any dog....i like learning about different ways of doing this....

and imo the dog throwing behaviors at you when he is confused is a great thing...clover does it sometimes when he is on the verge of learning something new...but then when he gets it....he really gets it....