Should I breed?

White foot · 03-18-2010, 07:04 AM

Hello, I'm new here.

I have a healthy miniature pinscher, she's about 9 pounds. Her pedigree is great, though I don't plan on showing. Like I said she's very healthy but she has a bowed front leg, it's not noticeable unless I point it out, or if you're looking for it. It doesn't bother her at all, the vet said the cause of it was because when she was in her mothers womb another puppy probably pushed up against the leg while it was forming.

What do you think? Thanks!

**alfi** · 03-18-2010, 07:25 AM

Breeding in not that easy. Has she passed all his OFA health certs with great passing? Received his CGC and received his CH? You shouldn't breed otherwise.

I am not even going to start hounding you on the millions of animals euthanasized each year in shelters or that die on the streets. No one ever thinks this could happen to a litter they breed. I am going to tell you what makes a responsible breeder and the major effort that goes into ensuring the best, healthiest critters possible. Breeding is not just putting two cute dogs together and sixty-three days later you have cuddly pups. Responsible breeding requires work. It is not to be jumped into headfirst.

Know the breed standard. A dog not fitting the standard will not be considered for breeding.Each dog has a standard accepted by a kennel club that states what the ideal specimen of that breed should look like. It covers fur to teeth, color to structure. Also, they get out and show the dogs.Just because you think the dog may fit the standard, does not mean it is a good breed representative. Only by having the dog evaluated many times can you truly get a feeling your dog is breeding material – this goes for males and females (what a dog show does as well as other competitions such a Schutzhund – I highly regard a dog who has achieved a SchIII – field trials, lure coursing, etc.). Even if a dog is top notch physically, meets the standard well, but has temperament issues (shy, aggressive), it will not be bred. Many breeders also want to prove their dogs have brains to match the beauty. There are various sports that test a dog’s working ability. A dog should have both form and function.

Know the pedigrees. Just because two dogs are great specimens does not mean they are compatible. Not all hereditary problems are a simple Dominant/Recessive gene thing. Some require a combination of multiple gene sequences before being expressed. So, two dogs could have parts of these sequences and if bred, the problem could be expressed though there is no sign in either dog’s background of the problem. Two great dogs also may not produce great puppies. A responsible breeder will research pedigrees and talk to other breeders to find the best possible matches. This can be a big undertaking. And just because a dog is winning all over the country does not mean he is the best. It may just mean he (or she) is being shown loads; chances are by a well-known handler, and everyone wants to breed to him (or get a pup from her). This dog may not be the best – just the most popular at the time. Do not be blinded by wins.

You also must know color inheritances. Some colors, like merles (blue or sable/red) should not be bred together.

Knows the dog. A responsible breeder will test dogs for things like hips, thyroid, eye problems (eye should be tested yearly on breeding stock) and whatever problems are common to your specific breed. If something is suspected, the dog is not bred.

Accepts the risks. Breeding is not all happy. You must be willing to wait until she is physically mature to breed (about two years old)-especially the female. They are not physically ready or emotionally. You cannot get hips certified until they are two years old at least. Dogs of both genders must be fully mature and in top shape before breeding. You must be willing to be in close contact with your vet from the moment of mating. There is so much that can happen and that you should know.

Accepts responsibility for puppies. Puppies need to be with Mom for 8 weeks – in some areas it is illegal to sell or give away an animal younger. This means eight weeks of poop, piddle, and then the fun of a litter of pups playing with food as they grow. They will require vet exams and at least one set of shots before going to homes. Vet costs, feeding, time to socialize and clean up after, postnatal care of them and Mom all can be expensive. What if down the road your dog develops a problem, say starts having seizures. Are you willing to call everyone who bought a puppy from you and inform them? What if someone calls you down the road and cannot keep the puppy – now dog – what will you do? What health guarantee will you offer? What if someone’s puppy proves deaf, dysplastic, epileptic, what will you do? You brought the pups into the world; therefore, you are responsible.

I have only touched on responsible breeding. There volumes devoted to responsible breeding. Do not breed haphazardly. Do not breed to get a dog "just like <<name>>" – it won’t happen. Do not breed if you cannot devote the time and money to do it responsibly. If you cannot ensure good, loving homes for pups (they do not go to pet stores or get dumped at shelters or given to just anyone), do not breed.

natenqen · 03-18-2010, 01:32 PM

Alfi has given you great advice in what to expect in breeding. It's not all peaches and cream.

I want to recommend you for asking first rather than just going out and doing it. It shows how you are being a responsible dog owner. (At least to me.) My opinion, if you don't plan to show her, (like you've stated) get her spayed.

From what I have read about breeding, lots of money goes into breeding dogs to standard including the health tests, cost of road trips from confirmation to confirmation, and basica care. That is why many good breeders sell their puppies for lots, to cover what they spent. Most usually don't make lots of money of the pups they've sold. Maybe a few, but not much and most will give you at least 6 months to 1 year health guarentee and/or take back the puppy they sold you to find it a good home because you can no longer keep the dog. Are you willing to do that?

For bad breeders (back yard breeders-byb- and/or puppy mill.) they make tons of money, but they don't care for their dogs and/or puppies. Let me ask you this, let's say you just bought a cute, good looking puppy from a byb thinking they are good. The person only cares about the money they got. Than you find out your puppy started to have serious health problems. Now what? You could go back to the breeder you got the dog right? But the breeder is going to tell you, you bought the dog it's your problem not mine. Now what? You spent probably 1,000 dollars on the pup, only to have it in your care for a short while. Or maybe you are one of those people like us who end up spending tons of money to try and save the dog.

So, that is what I think and you should ask yourself those questions first. And most people here aren't going to bash you and may even come out mean toward you, but they are not, we are just very... passionate. (I guess you could say.) We don't want to see any more dogs in shelters and pounds. ^_^

AdoJrts · 03-18-2010, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by White foot

Hello, I'm new here.

I have a healthy miniature pinscher, she's about 9 pounds. Her pedigree is great, though I don't plan on showing. Like I said she's very healthy but she has a bowed front leg, it's not noticeable unless I point it out, or if you're looking for it. It doesn't bother her at all, the vet said the cause of it was because when she was in her mothers womb another puppy probably pushed up against the leg while it was forming.

What do you think? Thanks!

How do you know she is completely healthy? Have you done all the required genetic testing that your breed does?
How do you know that her pedigree is great? Based on who's opinion? What makes it great?

What is your puppy contract going to be? Personally I wont purchase a pup unless it comes with nothing less than a 5 yr health guarantee for the simple reason that most genetic issues appear after the age of 5. I also want proof that every dog in that dogs pedigree has been tested.

Do you have nothing less than a thousand dollars (not including stud fee) for vet bills?

Also plan to book time off from work for the week that the bitch is due, as most responsible breeders don't let their girls whelp alone.

A litter 3 yrs ago, cost me over $5000..................health testing momma, stud fee, post breeding vet check up and testing, post whelp x-ray to know how many pups to expect, C-section ($750.00), THEN momma rejected the litter. Not uncommon for a maiden bitch (first time having pups) to reject their pups if they have a c-section. Loss of wages, while I hand fed pups and muzzled momma to force her to nurse her pups...........almost lost my job.....boss doesn't care that I am trying to keep puppies alive. All that for 3 pups.

Plus you don't get any sleep for the first 2 1/2 wks.........by the time you either hand feed them or force momma to feed them.......you then have to stimulate them to pee and have a BM (momma wont) and that takes time. By the time you get them done and catch a nap, you have to get up and start it all over again.

The $5000.00 also doesn't not take into account that the bitch was proven in the working field & the performance ring........which costs a lot of money too.

Gezzzz I really do hate breeding, the stress and the worry along with the responsiblity for pups for their entire lives ...................and I ONLY breed for myself to keep my lines going from dogs that I have proven/tested etc.

Mikey · 03-18-2010, 03:49 PM

All I have to say is -read this

So you want to be a breeder?

Quote:

ATTENTION ALL NOVICE POTENTIAL BREEDERS!!!!!

SO YOU WANT TO BE A BREEDER? - Breeding the female

So you want to breed your female. You know what to expect if everything goes right. Your little girl will present you with tiny bundles of joy. She will lovingly nurse them and care for them until they are old enough to be weaned.
You and your family will find great joy in watching and playing with these little dolls, and then when the time is right they will all (or maybe you keep just one) go off to special homes to live out their lives as cherished companions. But have you given consideration to what if something goeswrong? I have listed here a few of the problems that I myself have personal knowledge of. Everything listed has happened either to me or someone I know. These are not isolated incidents. I'm sure other breeders could add miles to my list. Learn by others mistakes!. Let the breeding up to those who know what they are doing, have the experience, know what to expect.
WHAT IF DURING THE BREEDING

The stud dog you have chosen is carrying a venereal disease and gives it to your female. She not only doesn't conceive but you have to pay the vet bills to get her infection cleared up and she is now sterile.
The stud dog you decided to breed your darling to is not experienced. Once the two dogs are joined tightly in a tie, he decides to chase the neighbors cat out of his yard. He bolts for the cat ripping his penis loose and causing your bitch to hemorrhage from within.
Your modest girl decides she doesn't want the attentions of this gigolo mutt chosen for her without her consent. She snaps at him catching her tooth on his loose cheek and rips it open sending blood flying everywhere. He retaliates by sinking his teeth into her left eye.
You leave your dog with the stud owner because the breeding is not going very swiftly. In fact , it's been three hours and nothing is happening. The stud owners leave the two dogs alone in the back yard. The dogs get out through a tiny hole in the fence and a truck hits your female.
You pay the $250-$1000 stud fee up front figuring you will make that and more back when the pups sell. The breeder guarantees the stud service to work or you can come back again. After 2 months you discover it didn't work and now must wait another 4 months to try again. Of course it doesn't work again, so in another 4 months you take your dog to another male and risk loosing another stud fee.
You get her bred. Bring her home. She bothers you so you let her out she is still in heat and still receptive to males. You hear a commotion outside there is your girl tied up with the neighborhood mutt. when she whelps there will need to be DNA tests done on the pups.
You get her bred. Bring her home and let her out. (She is still in heat and receptive to other males) but you do not see the neighborhood mutt breed her. The pups are born but look odd. You call the stud owner he suggests DNA testing (At your expense). You have a litter of mutts! What do you do about the ones you have already sold?
Or knowing she tied with the neighborhood mutt you decide to terminate the pregnancy and try again being more careful next time. But a few weeks later your female is very sick because you had her given a miss-mate shot creating a hormonal imbalance causing a uterine infection and now she has Pyometra and needs a complete hysterectomy. All plans of getting a litter is gone and your female's life is now in danger if she does not have the operation.

WHAT IF DURING THE BIRTH

The puppies are too large for the female. She never goes into labor, the puppies die and she becomes infected by the decaying bodies.
The puppies are coming breech and they drown in their own sacks before they can be born.
The first puppy is large and breech. When it starts coming your female starts screaming, and before you can stop her she reaches around, grabs the puppy in her teeth and yanks it out killing it instantly.
A puppy gets stuck. Neither your female nor you can get it out. You have to race her to the vet. The vet can't get it out either. She has to have an emergency caesarian section of course it is 3:00 am Christmas day.
A puppy is coming out breech and dry (the water sack that protects them has burst). It gets stuck. Mom tries to help it out by clamping her teeth over one of the back legs. The head and shoulders are firmly caught. Mom pulls on the leg, hard, peeling the flesh from the leg and leaving a wiggling stump of bone.
A dead puppy gets stuck in the birth canal, but your female is well into hard labor. She contracts so hard trying to give birth that her uterus ruptures and she bleeds to death on the way to the vet.

WHAT IF DIRECTLY AFTER THE BIRTH

The mother has no idea what to do with a puppy and she drops them out and walks away, leaving them in the sack to drown.
The mother takes one look at the puppies, decides they are disgusting droppings and tries to smother them in anything she can find to bury them in.
The mother gets too enthusiastic in her removal of the placenta and umbilical cord, and rips the cord out leaving a gushing hole pulsing blood all over you as you try in vain to stop the bleeding.
Or, she pulls on the cords so hard she disembowels the puppies as they are born and you have a box full of tiny, kicking babies with a tangle of guts the size of a walnut hanging from their stomachs. Of course all the babies must be put to sleep.
What if because of some Hormone deficiency she turns vicious allowing no one near her or the babies, who she refuses to nurse, or you have to interfere with.
You notice something protruding from her vagina when you let her out to pee. You take her to the vet to discover a prolapsed uterus, which needs to be removed.

Mikey · 03-18-2010, 03:49 PM

cont.

Quote:

WHAT IF WHEN YOU THINK YOU'RE IN THE CLEAR

One or more of the puppies inhaled fluid during birth, pneumonia develops and death occurs within 36 hours.
What if the mother's milk goes bad. You lose three of your four puppies before you discover what is wrong. You end up bottle feeding the remaining pup every two hours, day and night. After three days the puppy fades from infection and dies.
The puppies develop fading puppy syndrome you lose two. You bottle-feeding or tube feeding the last remaining baby. It begins to choke and despite your efforts to clear the airway, the pup stiffens and dies in your hands.
Your female develops mastitis and her breast ruptures.
Your female develops a uterine infection from a retained placenta. Her temperature soars to 105. You race her to the vet, he determines she must be spayed. He does the spay in an attempt to save her life, you pay the hundreds of dollars bill. The infection has gone into her blood stream. The infected milk kills all the puppies and the bitch succumbs a day later.
All the puppies are fine but following the birth the female develops a hormone imbalance. She becomes a fear biter and anytime anyone tries to touch her she viciously attacks them.
Mom and pups seem fine, the puppies are four weeks old and are at their cutest. However, one day one of the puppies disappears. You search everywhere but you can't find it. A few days later another puppy is gone. And another. You can't figure how on earth the puppies are getting out of their safe 4' x 4' puppy pen. Finally there is only one puppy left. The next morning you find the mother chomping contentedly on what is left of the last murdered puppy.

WHAT IF THE NEW HOMES AREN'T SO HAPPY

You give a puppy to a friend. Their fence blows down so they tie the puppy outside while they go to work. A roving dog comes along and kills the puppy. Your friend calls you up to tell you about the poor little puppy and asks when you are having more puppies.
You sell a puppy to an acquaintance. The next time you see them you ask how the puppy is doing. They tell you that it soiled their new carpet so they took it to the pound
You sell a puppy to a friend (you give them a good price and payments). They make a couple of tiny payments. Six months later they move to an apartment. They ask you to take it back. You take it back and of course the payments stop. The dog they returned is so shy, and ill mannered from lack of socialization and training it takes you a year of work providing socializing and training to be able to give it away.
You sell a puppy to a wonderful home. They love her like one of the family. At a vet check done by their vet it is determined that the puppy has a heart murmur. (Your vet found nothing when he checked the puppy before it was sold.) They love their puppy and want the best for her. They have an expensive surgery done. The puppy is fine. They sue you for the medical costs. They win, because you did not have a contract stipulating conditions of guarantee and so as breeder you are responsible for the puppy's genetic health.
You give a puppy to your mother. She is thrilled. Two years later the puppy starts developing problems. It begins to develop odd symptoms and is suffering. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of tests later it is finally discovered that the dog is suffering from a terminal condition that was inherited. possibly from your female since you know nothing about her family lines.
One loving home decides your puppy is untrainable, destructive and wants to return the pup and get a full refund, which you have spent on your vet bills.
One loving couple calls you and is very upset because their pup has crippling hip dysplasia and want to know what you are going to do about it. You have spayed your female so a replacement is out of the question, looks like another refund.

THE SALE

You put your ad in the local paper for your pups at the usual price and get only 2 responses and no sales. You cut the pup's price in half and broaden your advertising to 3 other newspapers in which the advertising totals $120.00 a week.
You get a few more puppy inquiries from people who ask all about health testing you did before breeding and if the pups are registered. You tell them your dogs are healthy and it was enough and that you could get the papers. The callers politely thank you and hang up.
The pups are now 4 months old and getting bigger , eating alot and their barking is really beginning to annoy the neighbors who call the police who inform you of the $150.00 noise by-law.
Your neighbors also call the humane society who comes out to inspect the care of your dogs. You pass inspection but end up feeling stressed and harassed.
You finally decide to give the rest of the litter away but still have to pay the $1200.00 advertising bill and the $600.00 vet bill.

So you gotta ask yourself: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, "breeder?"