raw newbie

Mikey · 07-01-2010, 02:14 AM

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Salmonella can be found in kibble Mikey. Natural Balance kibble just got recalled for potential salmonella.

I NEVER stated it couldn't have

I'm NOT advocating kibble!

\
However RAW CHICKEN is maybe a bigger risk. You know-because dog food is recalled if it's found to have it. And raw chicken is just expected to have it

ALSO I NEVER stated kibble is the answer-or that I'm happy thats the only option. Trust me-when I can mange it, I will do fully home cooked.

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Their bodies digest food so quickly they aren't really at risk of catching salmonella or other parasites humans could get eating raw meat

I'm just wondering what you think digesting fast has to do with catching salmonella? Because it has nothing to do with it. SEriously-I know that's one of the points on raw websites, but if you understand paritism, it has nothing to do with it.

Salmonella is adapted to withstand high pH and no animla has 'majuk' stomach fluid or spit to bypass this.

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There are plenty of foods that can take up to ten hours. If you do some researching, you`ll find that for many dogs, digesting raw foods take a considerable less amount of time then kibble. If you`d like to try, throw a raw carrot in with your dog`s meal. For most dogs, it will take around 10-12 hours for the carrot to 're appear'. I did the test and it took about 10-11hrs for it to completely go through the digestive system.

Sorry we miscommunicated here...
IT will take 12 hours to be pooped out. It's out of the tummy -no matter what-in five hours.
Sorry-I have done the research, and I really do the research-not on raw sites, but in the veterinary and nutrition journals. Alot-almost two years now of pouring through the journals and literature.

Dogs and humans poop in 24 hours max, and no matter what it is, it's out of the tummy in five hours. Period.

But I DID ASK YOU for websites and links for the claims you are making-you failed to provide any.
I'm free to do so if you are interested in reading something other then raw proponents...?
Again-I must ask if you are going to make these claims, provide support, so we can judge them for what they are.

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complete antedote,,. But all five of my dogs that I tried raw on were violently ill. Kiwi was so sick I had to take her to the e-vet to recieve fluids, she had puked so much.

Iam not saying its bad/good whatever. But I will say its not as easy as the raw people make it out to be. You don't just toss a chicken leg in a bowl and be done with it.

one thing I recommend to anyone thinking about raw. Search long and hard for this word.

DETOX.

many wont mention it, or will mention it only briefly, while your dog adjusts you may have vomiting, diarhea, shedding, odor etc.

Ditto
And dogs do get sick on it all the time, it's lacking in nutrients(if you don't know what you are doing, joe shmoe will not, and puking and diarhea being 'normal' is not...

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Detox really depends on the dog. Mine have been on raw for a few months now and the transition was very smooth. I started feeding it because that is what our show handler uses and when she was handling Beau he looked superb.

I'm NOT saying you can't do it-but I'm sorry balancing nutrients is hard. And yes-no matter what it is, if it works for your dog do it By all means! But vomiting for 'detox' and 'dogs don't get salmonella' is just plain wrong.

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Ali, Sarah, I have fed raw for 14 yrs. I started all my pups except our last German shepherd pup, out on raw as soon as I brought them home. I thought I would try her out on a natural kibble. She had diarrhea and vomiting. So I switched to another expensive natural brand. She wouldn't eat it. I called the breeder to see what they were feeding. I tried that. I had the same problem. i tried just about all of the expensive natural brands. Either she wouldn't eat it or it made her sick. So I went back to the raw diet. I spent so much money and had to give away so much dog food away. After I put her on the raw diet she never vomited or had diarrhea. She put on weight because she didn't while on the trials with the kibble. I have put all of our other pups on the raw food as soon as I brought them home. I never had a problem with diarrhea or vomiting. I ended up with my mom's elderly Westie after she passed away. As soon as he came to live with us I switched him over to raw gradually. I never I never had any problems with him on the raw. I ended up with our son's elderly Pit Bull after he moved. I put him on raw as soon as he got here. I never had a problem with him. When I got him his fur was wiry and dry and he shed a lot. After he was on the raw for awhile, his fur got soft and it didn't fall out all of the time. He got to a healthy weight and got a lot healthier. I did a lot of research on the raw diet and other diets. I researched the grain diet that came out at that time. I tried it . My dogs didn't like it. Then i read a book that I found at a used book store. It was about a show dog breeder in the 40''s . She fed her show dogs raw food when it was never heard of. So I decided to give it a try. Then I found Dr. Billingshurst's book in a magazine. So I sent for it. I have followed his diet since. I have not been sorry. I have never had any Salmonella or any other sicknesses. In that 14 yrs all the dogs I have had on the raw food, have never been sick from diseases or parasites. They have never had to have their teeth cleaned either. They never had bad mouth smell either. I had a homeopathic vet until she passed away from cancer. She told me to keep my dogs on the raw diet because they were doing so good. She said they were really healthy and their coats were beautiful. I looked for another diet because we had our German shepherd die of cancer. She had a massive cancer mass in her chest. She was not 5 yrs old when we had to euthanize her. She was raised on an expensive so-called best brand of kibble. It was supposed to be one of the best foods on the market at that time and is still on the market. I'll tell anybody that says raw isn't good. That I will take my chances feeding my fur kids the raw diet than to rely on what junk is in commercial foods. Until my dogs start getting sick from the raw foods, I will be feeding them the raw diet. The raw meat and food is the same I buy for us to eat. I cook the same meat for us. It all comes from the grocery store.

My first issue with this is
1) Just because it works for your dog, would you suggest it for every dog? Because it doesn't work for every dog-and that's a fallicy

2) Why *can't* you cook it? Have you tried? Why not just flame it on the outside (where the majority of the bacteria is) ?? Fire doesn't destroy nutrients, but simply makes it more digestible.

This is what I don't understand. I'm not arguing for kibble or against real food. BUT WHY RAW??? It CAN make them sick. WHY? Why not cook it...

gershepsmyfav · 07-01-2010, 12:37 PM

[quote=Mikey;66307]I NEVER stated it couldn't have

I'm NOT advocating kibble!

\
However RAW CHICKEN is maybe a bigger risk. You know-because dog food is recalled if it's found to have it. And raw chicken is just expected to have it

ALSO I NEVER stated kibble is the answer-or that I'm happy thats the only option. Trust me-when I can mange it, I will do fully home cooked.

I'm just wondering what you think digesting fast has to do with catching salmonella? Because it has nothing to do with it. SEriously-I know that's one of the points on raw websites, but if you understand paritism, it has nothing to do with it.

Salmonella is adapted to withstand high pH and no animla has 'majuk' stomach fluid or spit to bypass this.

Sorry we miscommunicated here...
IT will take 12 hours to be pooped out. It's out of the tummy -no matter what-in five hours.
Sorry-I have done the research, and I really do the research-not on raw sites, but in the veterinary and nutrition journals. Alot-almost two years n
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gershepsmyfav · 07-01-2010, 12:52 PM

[quote=Mikey;66307]I NEVER stated it couldn't have

I'm NOT advocating kibble!

\
However RAW CHICKEN is maybe a bigger risk. You know-because dog food is recalled if it's found to have it. And raw chicken is just expected to have it

ALSO I NEVER stated kibble is the answer-or that I'm happy thats the only option. Trust me-when I can mange it, I will do fully home cooked.

I'm just wondering what you think digesting fast has to do with catching salmonella? Because it has nothing to do with it. SEriously-I know that's one of the points on raw websites, but if you understand paritism, it has nothing to do with it.

Salmonella is adapted to withstand high pH and no animla has 'majuk' stomach fluid or spit to bypass this.

Sorry we miscommunicated here...
IT will take 12 hours to be pooped out. It's out of the tummy -no matter what-in five hours.
Sorry-I have done the research, and I really do the research-not on raw sites, but in the veterinary and nutrition journals. Alot-almost two years n
Posted via Mobile Device

Laurelin · 07-01-2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawzaddict

If raw is the only thing you think works for the dog have you considered purchasing pre-made raw?

It's not the only thing that works for him, but I can't find a grain free kibble that does work for him. He's on Holistic Selects right now, which isn't grain free. But it works.

but I have used premade raw before with the girls. I used Nature's Variety premade, which they refused to eat. And then I used Primal premade and they liked it much better.

All in all though premade raw is very expensive compared to what you can do on your own even at grocery store prices. The convenience is nice but the cost is a big detractor. I still use primal as a supplement as well as a local grind but I add in my own stuff on top of that.

pawzaddict · 07-01-2010, 10:23 PM

I see. Have you tried to figure out what it is about grain free that your dog would be reacting to? I think maybe you are giving too rich of stuff, we had Harvick on Blue Buffalo which was too rich for him and now he is on TOTW which is just perfect. Just an extra thought

Laurelin · 07-01-2010, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawzaddict

I see. Have you tried to figure out what it is about grain free that your dog would be reacting to? I think maybe you are giving too rich of stuff, we had Harvick on Blue Buffalo which was too rich for him and now he is on TOTW which is just perfect. Just an extra thought

I've listed out all the ingredients and specifications I can think of and can't figure out a similarity. Cali Natural was bad. Evo RM was bad. Orijen was the worst. TOTW was bad. Canidae, even tried Purina, etc etc... I've tried most brands with him, actually.

He does well on Fromm and Holistic Selects for unknown reasons. I fed the girls TOTW a long time very well (right before I switched them to full raw). I decided to try to switch Beau to TOTW because I like the ingredients better, and it went well for a while then he ended up back with inconsistent stools again.

dobmaniac · 07-02-2010, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

I NEVER stated it couldn't have

I'm NOT advocating kibble!

\
However RAW CHICKEN is maybe a bigger risk. You know-because dog food is recalled if it's found to have it. And raw chicken is just expected to have it

Prevalence of Salmonella in raw meat used in diets of racing greyhounds -- Chengappa et al. 5 (3): 372 -- Journal of Veterinary Diagnostic Investigation

Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets

The risk of salmonellae shedding by dogs fed Salmonella-contaminated commercial raw food diets

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The results of this preliminary study prove that some dogs fed a BARF diet shed Salmonella spp. in their stools. This fact should be a consideration for owners choosing to feed this diet and be of especial concern for those with young children, the aged, or other people who may have compromised immune systems. We hope that this study will serve as an impetus for further study, with more subjects and multiple stool samples from each subject, to fully elucidate the public health concerns of this popular feeding trend. Given the high percentage of BARF diets that were positive for Salmonella spp. on culture, strict hygiene must be implemented when handling this food. In addition, the food bowl, the feeding area, and the pet's mouth must be considered as potential sources of Salmonella.

All of these studies basically say the same thing. That it is more likely for dogs to shed salmonella on a raw diet than a kibble diet. I've read quite a abstracts on studies like this, and still haven't found one where a dog actually got sick from the extra salmonella in their diet. The studies are all more focused on public health concern.

This is the point where I suggest for raw feeders to use some basic common sense. For instance, pick up your dog's poop and wash your hands afterwards. And clean all surfaces that were touched by raw meat with a disinfectant agent. I hate to say it, but not all RAW feeders do these things. I absolutely crige whenever I hear that someone allows their dogs to walk around the home with raw chicken.

I could argue with them all day about how safe it is to the dog or themselves but either way it's still icky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

Salmonella is adapted to withstand high pH and no animla has 'majuk' stomach fluid or spit to bypass this.

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I don't know exactly what pH salmonella can withstand. But if you scroll down to the last paragraph in Fuction: Sectretions you will read that the canine stomach as a pH of 1 to 1.5 during meals. Which should kill most bacteria on contact. And anything not killed is most likely made incapable of reproduction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

I'm NOT saying you can't do it-but I'm sorry balancing nutrients is hard. And yes-no matter what it is, if it works for your dog do it By all means! But vomiting for 'detox' and 'dogs don't get salmonella' is just plain wrong.

I'm sure it is possible for dogs to get sick from salmonella. Is it something I worry about when I fed my dogs RAW? Not really. In the grand scheme of things, its just VERY unlikely to happen. Keep in mind these are animals know to eat roadkill, lick their own butts, and in some instances eat their own stools. Personally, I worry more about myself getting salmonella poisoning than my dogs. You can't fight their nature, or at least you shouldn't try...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

2) Why *can't* you cook it? Have you tried? Why not just flame it on the outside (where the majority of the bacteria is) ?? Fire doesn't destroy nutrients, but simply makes it more digestible.

This is what I don't understand. I'm not arguing for kibble or against real food. BUT WHY RAW??? It CAN make them sick. WHY? Why not cook it...

I could I guess.. But you can't cook anything with bones in it. That is a very known a recognized danger to the dog. And not something I would take a chance with, even with just searing the outiside of the meat.

So basically, I would have to find some other way for the dogs to get fiber in their diet. Maybe by adding grains or vegetables? And then I would need to give a calcium supplement to balance their meat. By this point I've gone completely home cooked, and added 20 hrs of food prep a month for something that really just didn't concern me. I have 4 dogs and they would need a LOT of home cooked food.

Home cooked is a very healthy diet alternative for our pets, but personally RAW works better for me and my dogs. If I can live with them being on a raw diet, I can't see why it should bother you in the least. I mean, you don't even know my dogs...

Ali · 07-09-2010, 03:24 PM

Why Thank you Dobmaniac! =]

I`ll definitely be saving those links!

Mikey · 07-09-2010, 11:54 PM

Quote:

I don't know exactly what pH salmonella can withstand. But if you scroll down to the last paragraph in Fuction: Sectretions you will read that the canine stomach as a pH of 1 to 1.5 during meals. Which should kill most bacteria on contact. And anything not killed is most likely made incapable of reproduction.

Is that your expert opinion? "Should kill"? Yes some are killed but they are evolved to survive, or else we would never hear about salmonella poisoning would we?

I would also like to point out the human stomachs are 1 pH while dogs are 1-1.5 pH which means less (7 neutral 14 basic) -for anyone who's interested in a fact that can't be argued.

Anyways the bottom line is I'm tired of arguing. Use common sense and talk to your vet.
Dogs can get salmonella-they can and they do. But if your comfortable risking that fine.

Homemade diets: attributes, pitfalls, and a call f... [Top Companion Anim Med. 2008] - PubMed result

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At one time, it was estimated that the majority of dogs and cats in the United States received 90% or more of their nutrition from complete and balanced commercially prepared foods, and this estimate was reaffirmed in a 2004 survey. However, 4 years and several pet food and treat recalls later, fewer pet owners are feeding commercial pet food products exclusively and more are asking questions and looking for alternatives. As in any market-driven economy, there are many more alternative diets and food products available today from which pet owners may select. A difficult to measure but growing number of clients are feeding homemade diets that provide 100% of their pet's nutrition, while a larger number are feeding a combination of products, treats, and home prepared meals. Most practitioners can attest to this increase in their client's interest in homemade meals and to having insufficient knowledge to assist them. At a time when motivated clients are considering homemade for their pets as an alternative, veterinarians are less than adequately versed in canine and feline nutrition and dietary options. The article addresses the two most important health issues concerning pet owners and veterinarians about homemade diets: nutritional integrity and food safety.

But I'm quite done arguing. I've only found the same thing with people who feed raw, that they argue and won't listen or even CONSIDER that their are risks (bigger then with kibble) with their diet. So I'm quite done. The information is out there, and if you want to believe they have magic saliva and stomachs then fine. And if you want to believe you can balance their nutritional needs without seeing a nutritionist then fine.

pawzaddict · 07-10-2010, 12:04 AM

from this, along with many other food discussions, I think it is quite clear that the facts are not out there and 100%, it seems there are opinions more than facts.