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New study: dogs do better on a high meat diet

This is a discussion on New study: dogs do better on a high meat diet within the Dog Food forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; I wouldn't consider Banfield a vet. That's like calling McDonald's food. There are a lot of great vets out there, and I personally trust our ...

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Old 03-20-2017, 08:47 AM
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I wouldn't consider Banfield a vet. That's like calling McDonald's food.

There are a lot of great vets out there, and I personally trust our vet's advice. I also do my own research though, but run it by my vet too.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gnostic Dog View Post
at the end of the day, it is the owner that bears the responsibility for their own dog,
You couldn't have said it better !

Expectations of the consumer are too often shaped by the mass producers or current consensus of the "accepted" science and practices. Just because fast food is available for humans does that mean it is a healthful? I rather doubt McDonald's or Science Diet will say, you or your dog could do better by consuming other food products which they do not produce therefore the decision rests with the consumer. Holding big corporations accountable to lead the consumer in the best direction is pure folly. Big corporations are not evil in my opinion, they are just taking advantage of the laziness and lack of culpability exhibited by the consumer. They are offering convenience at a cost, it's not a mystery. I do not hold the vets accountable for their general steering away from raw diets because they have been indoctrinated with a different approach which catered to the consumer's willingness to take an easier route i.e. failing to perform one's due diligence. However, as more vets like Dr. Karen Becker take a countering position to the "accepted science" of nutrition for your dog, it makes it easier for the lazy consumers to contemplate a different route for the benefit of their dogs. Maybe for some, it's just easier choosing to be a "victim" and cry foul when the promises of conventional wisdom goes awry.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:17 PM
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There are many Vets that are very conscious of nutrition for their canine patients. Like some human doctors, that I would not be comfortable seeing for any ailment, there are some Vets that I wouldn't trust either, but in my experience the Vets I have been in contact with, are highly educated in all aspects of animal medicine including nutrition. Our own Vet steered us away from processed food, to a kitchen that lightly cooks UDSA certified for human consumption foods, and includes the full spectrum of nutritional needs, including organ meat, fruits and vegetables. Like any other professional, you have to do the research and choose the right one.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:09 AM
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I've had several UK vets over the years. Most had no knowledge of nutrition. I remember telling one vet that I was going home cooked (not even raw) and you'd have thought I had said that aliens had landed.
As a very rough generalisation I would say the younger ones have been more interested in a holistic approach - so lifestyle, nutrition etc and not just dishing out meds and 'prescription' food. .
My current practice is the best so far. But even now, I will only be guided by them, not ruled. We have the ultimate responsibility for our pets so it is up to us to inform ourselves on every aspect of our dog's care and act in what we feel is their best interest..

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Old 03-24-2017, 10:38 PM
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" 'We already know dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates in their diet, so this study looked at the role different bacteria play in a dog’s digestion system to help us work toward a clearer picture of what the optimum diet for dogs is,' said study co-lead Dr Emma Bermingham of AgResearch.


Dogs on a high meat diet had smaller poo and better fecal health. "



I'd like to know the details of this study, and in particular, what were the results in their control group, because that was not mentioned in the article. I'm also concerned about the two above quotes. Dogs are not obligate carnivores, therefore, they do have nutritional need for varying amounts of carbs. Pull my working dogs off carbs (i.e. raw diet) and the first thing to go is mental stamina.

The conclusion they arrived at that feeding higher meat diets causes smaller stools would be laughable if it were not so sad. Of course less carbs + more meat will produce less waste. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the bioavalibility of the diet, but the lack of fiber.

I'm curious if this study noted the long-term effects of high protein diets on the kidneys, because diets like raw are known to increase normal BUN levels, even in the short term. Another aspect I am curious about is the effect of high protein on cancer, because the two are related.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...e-aged-people/

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/t...in-and-cancer/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3988204/

I don't believe one causes the other, but I have seen with my own eyes high protein diets cause tumors to grow like wildfire (on raw). I have known a raw fed dog with osteosarcoma (not a breed prone to the condition) and also had a Beagle (certainly not predisposed to bone cancer!) on a high meat/almost no carb canned food develop the condition many years ago. I just lost a 13yo dog who almost certainly developed systemic cancer on a grain free raw food diet. She lived in greater comfort and died far more peacefully on a homecooked diet with moderate amounts of grains and veg than the raw fed dog did. The same bitch had hypothyroidism which required supplementation and meds whilst on raw, but her symptoms mysteriously disappeared a few weeks after making the switch to cooked.

I'm more than open to a good, scientific study proving me wrong, but this is raising red flags for me, and seems like a way for the dog food companies involved to pitch their products. For now, though, I'll take it with a massive grain of salt, because I've been involved in purebred dogs for almost 20 years now, and have owned dogs much longer than that. Everything this study purports without concrete proof to back it up diametrically contradicts all my own experience and (yes, I admit it), experimentation on my own dogs in that time.


"The study is part of a three-year independent New Zealand research programme led by AgResearch and Massey University and co-funded by the New Zealand Premium Petfood Alliance and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment through the MBIE Outcomes for Science Targeted Research Fund to assist the red meat pet food industry to grow their exports."
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Old 03-25-2017, 07:29 PM
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There is a misconception that raw meat is high in protein when, in fact, it is quite low compared to many brands of high-quality brands of kibble.
For example, 1 cup of Orijen (original) contains a minimum of 38% protein while 1lb of raw chicken breast contains 18.1% protein...........
But also, yes dogs DO can and do assimilate grains such as corn, barley, oats and wheat. But remember, though, that grains provide mostly carbohydrates and only limited amino acids(protein) profiles. Extra carbohydrate intake over and above the immediate needs of the dog (which occurs often with grain-based diets) prompts internal enzyme factors to store that extra (sugar) carbohydrate as fat.
Even if you have an couch potato for a dog a low grain or no grain grain diet might be okay.... but performance dogs absolutely need higher protein and higher carbohydrate diets.


Here's a chart I found.....

Puppy...................28% protein 17% fat

Adult Dog.............18% protein 9-15% fat

Performance Dog...25% protein 20% fat

Racing Sled Dogs...35% protein 50% fat

All in all, whether you feed raw or kibble, everyone should take into account your individual dog's needs and feed accordingly!
Personally, I stay away from wheat, corn, and try to limit other carbs or I would have a very fat dog......hence my dog gets a varied diet of raw, homemade, and kibble!

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Old 03-26-2017, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnostic Dog View Post
One more gripe then I'm done.

When you have companies like candy company Mars owning pet food brands like Eukanuba, Iams, Pedigree, Royal Canin, (and other cat food brands), AND veterinary clinics like Banfield, Blue Pearl Specialty hospitals, and VCA, pet owners need to be self-educated and beware.

I'm glad that I am self educated when it comes to dog food. I brought Zody in to a vet, over and over, for the same problem, had the vet keep insisting that it was anal glands (it wasn't), said that I needed to get Zody to lose weight (I was already doing so), and then he told me to put him on Hill's Prescription Diet W/D because it would help bulk up his stool. When I told him Zody was sensitive to chicken, he told me to try it anyway and see how it worked. This is the ingredient list for the food:

Whole Grain Wheat, Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Chicken Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Whole Grain Sorghum, Soybean Mill Run, Chicken Liver Flavor, Pork Fat, Soybean Oil, Pork Liver Flavor, Lactic Acid, Caramel Color, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, L-Lysine, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Iodized Salt, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, L-Carnitine, Calcium Sulfate, Dl-Methionine, L-Threonine, L-Tryptophan, Mixed Tocopherols for Freshness, Natural Flavors, Beta-Carotene.

I fed it for 2 days to see what would happen, Zody ended up with soft stool, we went back to Fromm, I added oat bran to help bulk up his stool, and kept working on his weight, and I switched to a different vet who actually listened to me, and diagnosed Zody correctly. It's been nearly a year and I've had Zody in once for his anal glands. I noticed that when he gets chicken his anal glands act up, no chicken, no anal gland problem. If I had kept following the first vet's advice I would still be feeding Zody that horrid food, and be wondering why my dog's anal glands are such a mess.

I now rotate between Fromm and Zignature, I know it's probably not as good as raw, but they are both decent foods, and their first ingredients are meat, and the protein lv is around 28%
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Old 03-26-2017, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TrackInDirt View Post
" 'We already know dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates in their diet, so this study looked at the role different bacteria play in a dogís digestion system to help us work toward a clearer picture of what the optimum diet for dogs is,' said study co-lead Dr Emma Bermingham of AgResearch.


Dogs on a high meat diet had smaller poo and better fecal health. "



I'd like to know the details of this study, and in particular, what were the results in their control group, because that was not mentioned in the article. I'm also concerned about the two above quotes. Dogs are not obligate carnivores, therefore, they do have nutritional need for varying amounts of carbs. Pull my working dogs off carbs (i.e. raw diet) and the first thing to go is mental stamina.

The conclusion they arrived at that feeding higher meat diets causes smaller stools would be laughable if it were not so sad. Of course less carbs + more meat will produce less waste. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the bioavalibility of the diet, but the lack of fiber.

I'm curious if this study noted the long-term effects of high protein diets on the kidneys, because diets like raw are known to increase normal BUN levels, even in the short term. Another aspect I am curious about is the effect of high protein on cancer, because the two are related.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...e-aged-people/

Are We Eating Too Much Protein? A Scientist Makes the Connection Between Protein and Cancer | One Green Planet

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3988204/

I don't believe one causes the other, but I have seen with my own eyes high protein diets cause tumors to grow like wildfire (on raw). I have known a raw fed dog with osteosarcoma (not a breed prone to the condition) and also had a Beagle (certainly not predisposed to bone cancer!) on a high meat/almost no carb canned food develop the condition many years ago. I just lost a 13yo dog who almost certainly developed systemic cancer on a grain free raw food diet. She lived in greater comfort and died far more peacefully on a homecooked diet with moderate amounts of grains and veg than the raw fed dog did. The same bitch had hypothyroidism which required supplementation and meds whilst on raw, but her symptoms mysteriously disappeared a few weeks after making the switch to cooked.

I'm more than open to a good, scientific study proving me wrong, but this is raising red flags for me, and seems like a way for the dog food companies involved to pitch their products. For now, though, I'll take it with a massive grain of salt, because I've been involved in purebred dogs for almost 20 years now, and have owned dogs much longer than that. Everything this study purports without concrete proof to back it up diametrically contradicts all my own experience and (yes, I admit it), experimentation on my own dogs in that time.


"The study is part of a three-year independent New Zealand research programme led by AgResearch and Massey University and co-funded by the New Zealand Premium Petfood Alliance and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment through the MBIE Outcomes for Science Targeted Research Fund to assist the red meat pet food industry to grow their exports."
You don't need to feed raw to feed a high meat diet. If you read the ingredient list in my previous reply the food my vet tried to get me to feed was, very, very, low in meat. It's almost like meat was an after thought in it. I'm not one to feed a PMR or BARF diet, but do firmly believe that dogs do best when fed mostly meat.

There's now vegetarian dog and cat foods put out by more then one company, and I wonder if that's one of the things the study may be trying to address.
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Old 03-26-2017, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Rain View Post
You don't need to feed raw to feed a high meat diet. If you read the ingredient list in my previous reply the food my vet tried to get me to feed was, very, very, low in meat. It's almost like meat was an after thought in it. I'm not one to feed a PMR or BARF diet, but do firmly believe that dogs do best when fed mostly meat.

There's now vegetarian dog and cat foods put out by more then one company, and I wonder if that's one of the things the study may be trying to address.

I was disputing a claim in the article that dogs have NO dietary need for carbohydrates, which would only be true if they were obligate carnivores. That single false statement negates the validity of the entire article, in my estimation, because actual scientific research does not classify dogs in that category. Felids are obligate carivores, dogs are omnivorous scavengers who can utilize grains/carbs and do have a proven dietary need for complex carbohydrates.

Never once stated that biologically inappropriate raw diets would be the only way to achieve high meat levels, and as a matter of fact, gave an example where a dog I once owned that was feed an almost all meat canned diet - that would certainly qualify as being "low carb" - developed a form of cancer that is almost unheard of in small & medium sized breeds.

I also expressed concern about the very real, well documented dangers of long-term high protein diets, such as renal problems that can be caused or exasperated by the levels of phosphorous that naturally occur in all sources of protein, but are particularly high in meats. Generally, the higher protein a food contains, the higher its phosphorous content. And in turn, the higher it's calcium must be, and in the case of dog food, the higher its ash levels will be. This is a recipe for kidney disease in susceptible animals. There is also evidence that adult humans who eat high protein in middle age are at greater risk for cancer, and this is precisely what I've noticed in my dogs.

What I did say was that a raw diet might actually have been implicated in causing cancer in two of my older dogs, causing a mammary tumor in one to grow to the size of a grapefruit in a very short amount of time. OTOH, the other dog I had on a lower protein, moderate carbohydrate cooked diet, who likely did develop cancer on raw, had a longer life expectancy, better quality of life, and slower tumor growth. That leads me to conclude there is a possibility that high protein does indeed contribute to tumor growth and/or development, and that removing carbohydrates, contrary to my former line of thought, does not "starve" the tumor, but may actually be starving the dog.

So, my long winded point being I wanted to clarify that I believe ALL varieties of high protein diets fed long-term may pose a risk that this article did absolutely nothing to address. And instead promoted unscientific anti-facts regarding the nutritional requirements of dogs. But really, that these "scientists" could not figure out that less bulky stool was caused by a lack of dietary fiber and not the diet's overall digestibility was just maddening
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:20 AM
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TrackInDirt,

Most likely I will make some incorrect assumptions but what the heck.

It would seem we are polar opposite in our attitudes regarding a dog's diet but yet we are seemingly both looking for a culprit when it comes to the harm a specific diet might impact on a dog's health. I'm the flip-side of the coin as I started feeding a raw diet due to the negative consequences a commercial kibble diet may have created with a previous dog. Perhaps, both of us are looking for research and results which agree with our own opinions created through our real experiences with previous dogs. It's easy to search for what we want to hear while staying objective throughout the process, I know I am somewhat guilty of this.

It appears you have certainly spent some time investigating the dietary needs of a dog, so bear with me if my opinions or words are less than sufficient. First, it is my understanding that carbs are not a necessity in a dog's diet but I certainly can find countering "research" which would suggest otherwise. I have read that dog's can assimilate fats and proteins into glucose via gluconeogenesis which would negate the need for carbs in their diet.

I have also found that my dog and many others I know which are fed a raw diet tend to be more lean and with more muscle tone.

I also wonder if the significantly higher water content in a raw diet might add to the smaller stool side effect along with the additional amount of time a raw diet stays in the dog's stomach and GI tract, allowing for better absorption of nutrients.

It's all a very interesting debate as to which is best and maybe we tend to do what is best for our dog's based on personal results, past and current. I know it is not scientific when we choose based on these past results and experiences but at many times, it is exactly what many tend to do.

Dogs have obviously survived well enough over their history on varied diets and certainly were fine before kibble was ever commercially made. I'm guessing a diet of varied food scraps and offal ( probably mostly raw ) was the mainstay of many a dog. Commercially prepared kibble is certainly in its infancy when measured against the time dogs have been by our sides.

I'm fairly confident of the notion that we tend to do what is best for our dogs when it comes to diet or at least many of us do. With that in mind, I believe if one chooses a typical diet, raw diet or anything in between, the choice is made to benefit the dog or so I would like to believe.
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