11-23-2009, 12:03 AM
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#11 | | Banned
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 363
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next the dog aggression thing...i've met all sorts of dogs of different breeds that are dog aggressive...yet pits always get such a bad rap for this (this is one of my prejudices/fears) are pits really more dog aggressive? clover has some really great friend dogs that are pits...and i have little fear with them, but when i see any dog that i don't know let's say at the dog park, i'm very careful to watch for signs of trouble, but with a pit...i've noticed that i'm slightly more anxious...should i be? do pits tend to be more dog aggressive or is it that they just aren't usually as well socialized with other dogs?
| This is a hard question to give a simple answer to. I can tell you no genetic linkages have been isolated proving such..but that doesnt really mean much except there is no definative answer. I can tell you from personal experience..i live with a dog who is a pit and who is what i consider to be the worst kind of dog aggressive. Because its not barking or snapping or snarling. Its getting silent and low to the ground, creeping forward and then a quick strike...body language that is reminiscent of a stalking wolf. Here's what i believe..based on my observations of her and a few others..
I think there is genetic based DA. I think its probably a modified prey/hunt sequence of behaviors redirected to a different stimulus...dogs. I dont think this is exclusive to pits though or very common at all. I think it maybe more common in pits. And other highly driven breeds. Something to keep in mind. Its really extremely easy to control though if you have any familiarity with dogs. That statement though..deserves it own thread though.
im going to be slow posting btw..im ona cellphone in a car..on a road trip(dont worry not driving) | 
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11-23-2009, 12:06 AM
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#12 | | Dog Forum Team Member
Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: California...in the mountains
Posts: 15,867
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Originally Posted by Criosphynx  my dog chooses flight, if flight does not work, she shutsdown.. 
but yes I agree...what they default to first is likely genetic...
Critter/Chili goes from flight to fight FAST.
Tippy/Emma/Kiwi will flight then shut down, at varying degrees of aversives.
Kiwi was attacked TWICE by stray dogs...she did nothing but lay there and perhaps half heartedly flee. my pit has a abnormal temperament tho..."cold" temperament IMO.
Mikey, they are really really common here in CA...so its more of a "everyone has one so I should too" ...like to fit in, rather than be tough. | you mean abnormal for a pit? so "cold" is flight/shutdown before fight? so normal for a pit would be fight first as a default, but it would take way more to provoke that response...?
you've talked about her playing before tho...that she is really into it, even if hurt etc...i sort of see this as a pit thing tho i've seen other dogs do this too...
oh and would clover then be considered a "pit type" dog? lol...i'll tell my mom he is, she'll freak...  sometimes i like to get her going... | 
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11-23-2009, 12:09 AM
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#13 | | Banned
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 363
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Last edited by Zim; 11-23-2009 at 12:12 AM.
Reason: i hate my new phone. the internet is all screwy on it.
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11-23-2009, 12:34 AM
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#14 | | Dog Forum Team Member
Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Som'where between Utopia and Insomnia.
Posts: 11,078
| Interesting Zim Keep it coming! Quote:
Originally Posted by fawkese1 you mean abnormal for a pit? so "cold" is flight/shutdown before fight? so normal for a pit would be fight first as a default, but it would take way more to provoke that response...?
you've talked about her playing before tho...that she is really into it, even if hurt etc...i sort of see this as a pit thing tho i've seen other dogs do this too...
.. | read the section on "dog social" pit bulls... this is what Kiwi is (so far). She does not show any inclining Of DA... even if really really provoked Bad Rap : Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pit Bulls Quote: | A dog that truly enjoys the company of other dogs, including housemate dogs. Very easy going; Forgives even the rudest dog manners. Dog-social dogs include most puppies and a percentage of socially mature (14 months and older) pit bulls. Some call these dogs 'cold' pit bulls. | she is over two years old now so Iam hoping this is her "permanent" temperament...tho I have heard three years before instead of two for maturity. Most dogs are cold as puppies and that changes at maturity.
she does, once she gets going, seem very oblivious to pain...Chili at 15lbs can hang from her face and she doesn't care...she will play until she bleeds...perhaps Zim can tell us a bit more about pain tolerances, as I don't know how to explain it correctly.
Last edited by Criosphynx; 11-23-2009 at 12:40 AM.
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11-23-2009, 12:34 AM
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#15 | | Dog Forum Team Member
Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: California...in the mountains
Posts: 15,867
| that is a good link...that site says that they do tend to be more dog aggressive...as terriers often are but that it should be manageable behavior...
okay...so that brings me to something else...for some reason i have this idea that the "signs" of trouble/aggression from a pit are somehow different then they would be with another dog...i think this has to do with hearing statements like "you can't trust a pit, they'll be fine one minute and a killer the next" over and over again as a child. if i take that sort of statement into the context of what i now know about dogs, makes me think that they simply, as crios put it, have longer fuse then a lot of other dogs tend to have...would you say that is a more accurate way of looking at it?
road trip! where/why? i love road trips! | |
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11-23-2009, 12:39 AM
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#16 | | Dog Forum Team Member
Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: California...in the mountains
Posts: 15,867
| oh yeah crios, i'd read that site now...
i wonder the same thing about clover tbh...he really loves dogs now, but he is still so young...
would you manage that behavior through socialization i wonder? | |
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11-23-2009, 12:48 AM
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#17 | | Dog Forum Team Member
Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Som'where between Utopia and Insomnia.
Posts: 11,078
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that is a good link...that site says that they do tend to be more dog aggressive...as terriers often are but that it should be manageable behavior...
| I love that particular page... my only mature dog social dog is my pit bull ironically the rest are dog tolerant and dog selective. Quote:
okay...so that brings me to something else...for some
"you can't trust a pit, they'll be fine one minute and a killer the next" over and over again as a child.
| when I hear this the first thing I think of it that people can't, don't wont understand canine body language..I CONSTANTLY see a fight right before it happens and the owners will then say "wow that came out of no where"...
the other thing I think of is compulsion based training, done wrong...people "correct" the dog over and over until the dog finally makes that switch from flight to fight. if you beat on your dog for a year, then yeah, it might maul you. People always seemed shocked when this happens. Quote: |
i wonder the same thing about clover tbh...he really loves dogs now, but he is still so young...
| Imo without a tramatic event most dogs will simply go up a level on that scale...if hes' dog social, he is not likely to JUMP to DA...he may just become selective or tolerant...if som'thing horribly tramatic happens then yes he can definetly become DA but thats unrelated to his genetic temperament..thats nuture, not nature. Quote: |
would you manage that behavior through socialization i wonder?
| my understanding is that its not a lack of socialization but som'thing that either will/ will not happen...baring the tramatic event like I mentioned above. I can't speak from this personally, I see people "socializing" their puppies all the time and the dogs are miserable...people don't understand that the experiences MUST be good...not just dog experiences.
Last edited by Criosphynx; 11-23-2009 at 12:51 AM.
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11-23-2009, 01:03 AM
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#18 | | Banned
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 363
| pain tolerance? goes back to that stubborn "game" thing. it is again a temperment thing. some of them have and some dont. it desirable in a pit. its one of the things that makes them generally more tolerant withkids....the bite incidents arw a result of dogs pushed to their limit.
as seen here.. National Canine Research Council | |
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11-23-2009, 01:07 AM
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#19 | | Dog Forum Team Member
Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: California...in the mountains
Posts: 15,867
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I love that particular page... my only mature dog social dog is my pit bull ironically the rest are dog tolerant and dog selective. | the best thing about it, is that they show all the dogs next to each other...you can't tell which is which... Quote: |
when I hear this the first thing I think of it that people can't, don't wont understand canine body language..I CONSTANTLY see a fight right before it happens and the owners will then say "wow that came out of no where"...
| this is how i feel, i mean i watch all the dogs at the park anyway because i find it interesting, but after hearing that so often i can't help but feel like i might miss something...i have gotten good at spotting trouble tho, and there are a couple of dogs that only mix well with certain other dogs, and some do better if they are there before other dogs show up as apposed to showing up later...i wish i had more time/patience actually, i think it would be a great place to study dog behavior....clover would love to go and hang out all day that's for sure
t Quote: |
he other thing I think of is compulsion based training, done wrong...people "correct" the dog over and over until the dog finally makes that switch from flight to fight. if you beat on your dog for a year, then yeah, it might maul you. People always seemed shocked when this happens.
| i've noticed that some pit people think that correcting the dog more is the best way to keep it out of trouble...  i've heard some people proudly talk about correcting their dog and how they are responsible pit owners...i always find this so sad, i mean dogs take so much punishment as it is, and none take more then pits do, imo Quote: |
Imo without a tramatic event most dogs will simply go up a level on that scale...if hes' dog social, he is not likely to JUMP to DA...he may just become selective or tolerant...if som'thing horribly tramatic happens then yes he can definetly become DA but thats unrelated to his genetic temperament..thats nuture, not nature.
| i try to keep his dog experiences as good as i can, that is why i leave the dog park and other places if i smell trouble...but we still go regularly...i have a leash question about this, starting another thread.... Quote: |
my understanding is that its not a lack of socialization but som'thing that either will/ will not happen...baring the tramatic event like I mentioned above. I can't speak from this personally, I see people "socializing" their puppies all the time and the dogs are miserable...people don't understand that the experiences MUST be good...not just dog experiences. | this is true as well, i mean, you can't just expose the dog to stuff and hope for the best you need to actively do something to make it a good experience for the dog at the same time...at least that is my understanding of it...i also see similar situations where the dog is showing signs of fear and then gets corrected for it....even worse.... | |
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11-23-2009, 01:08 AM
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#20 | | Dog Forum Team Member
Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: California...in the mountains
Posts: 15,867
| btw...thanks all for being so helpful, i really do think that pits are a great breed/type of dog...and i have defended them all my life...lol...it is about time i learned real info to back up my arguements! | |
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