Kimber biting or nipping Husband

Gone2Dogs · 02-26-2010, 04:19 PM

Like Fawkese says....it doesn't have to be tons....but it does have to be consistent and not LAZY.

(His giving up on Kimber running loose just told Kimber that he isn't going to follow through....so why bother to obey. )

In our house who feeds and outs the dogs varys with the day, but to be fair and to keep everyone in touch I make sure that it is done by everyone. With that simple chore is the basis of listening to all the humans. When the kids were small I started them with feeding and running the dogs. The dogs learned to behave the same for the two year old toddler as the five year old or the seven year old as for me. It was imperative with two Bullmastiffs growing up with a one year old, three year old and five year old. Never did I want them not to be respected and obeyed. Likewise the kids learned the responsibility and respect for the beasts. Granted I might be the one to follow through if they ran off instead of came when called but the idea came through loudly that the dogs were to obey everyone.
So the simple task of getting the food, having the dog sit or down before their bowl is presented and then taking them out and going potty is all it took largely. Granting too that here the dogs are loose in the yard and the first thing any dog living here learns is a totally solid recall. They may spend weeks or months on a long line first...but that is the goal.

Brittany · 02-26-2010, 04:24 PM

Quote:

..but it does have to be consistent and not LAZY.

I appreciate your advice. I am not sure why you are capitalizing words like WORK and LAZY. I find that offensive and I am not sure what makes you think I do not work with Kimber and Kelsey or that I am lazy but I do not appreciate the insinuation.

Gone2Dogs · 02-26-2010, 10:13 PM

I emphasized those words because often people think they teach a dog to do something and it will continue throughout life. Work is work....you will need to refresh with the dog and not you Brittany but a generic you,.....since he is obeying YOU you have obviously done the work to get him to this point. But others in the house will need to make requests and have expectations of him or he will continue to blow them off. Lazy was emphasized because to me your SO coming inside and giving up on calling the dog was just that...being lazy. The dog knows he won't follow through so what would inspire Kimber to bother to obey him?

You obviously can and will take what I say however you like. I have no interest in offending you but you will take it as you do.

Brittany · 02-27-2010, 07:13 AM

Thank you for the clarification. However, in my opinion you come across as rude in MANY of your posts. Maybe this is just because we are on the internet and cannot really understand the tone of a post but you should be aware of that. Smiley's are used to try to make a tone clear. Capitalizing letters are also used to make a tone clear.

I know that you have 30 years of wonderful experience training dogs. If you are here to share your wealth of knowledge and really help people, members at least myself, would be more open to it if you would tone your posts down some. Maybe you can do that by using smileys for clarification. Like I said, I could be misunderstanding but many of your posts come off as rude to me.

**Criosphynx** · 02-27-2010, 10:25 AM

personally, I think him NOT continuing to call/chase him was the right thing to do.

Repeating a cue over and over that is not working is the fastest way to poison a cue. When one of mine ignores (or can't hear) a recall after two tries I don't EVER try a third. I change tactics. I go get them...get closer and try again, or run the other direction. I think it was good that he realized it wasn't working and went for help rather than call the dog over and over and over again when it wasn't working.. I don't see that as lazy, I see that as a realization that he wasn't doing som'thing right and asking for help.

Brittany · 02-27-2010, 10:55 AM

That is my thinking too Crio. I have told Nic NEVER to chase the dogs if they aren't listening because then it turns into a game. He wasn't going to leave Kimber running loose outside he was coming back to get me.

But I do realize Nic is going to have to work with Kimber if he wants Kimber to listen to him. He is a very busy man and I can not force him to do anything. I am very proud of Kimber, Kelsey and myself for everything that we have accomplished. Kimber has come a long way since we adopted him in October

.

Gone2Dogs · 02-27-2010, 01:47 PM

My understanding of Pryor's "poisoned cue" is different than yours. To me Kimber was blowing Nic off.....saying come a million times isn't going to change that since Kimber didn't come to Nic and wasn't gonna....so there (dogs tantrum, not me)
To me if Nic had thrown rocks and yelled and screamed to "punish" Kimber....that would be poisoning the cue.

And I still contend that giving up just told the dog that he needn't obey him. Whether because he was giving up on the dog or getting Brittany...The dog is going to preceive it as ....I don't have to obey him eventually he'll leave me alone...and reinforcing him being ignored in the future. Rolling on the ground, running opposite direction in an excited happy tone.......several other things might have been helpful.

Brittany, I don't know what to tell you about my impression on you. I post information that might help the situation. I am not trying to hurt anyone or push my agenda because what I do and what others do is their issue- it's a free country where I live. I really don't think that emoticons is going to change that for you. Just as your post doesn't have any less attitude just because you put a smiley at the end.

**Criosphynx** · 02-27-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

To me if Nic had thrown rocks and yelled and screamed to "punish" Kimber....that would be poisoning the cue.

I think yelling at Kimber to come in an increasingly irritated tone certainly falls into that. It doesn't have to be intentionaly aversive to be aversive

My understanding is a poisoned cue is ALSO inaddition to what you covered, a cue that has lost meaning due to whatever reason. A cue that is not reinforced is also aversive to many dogs, as the pressure to perform a unrewarded behavior is aversive and once again, poisons the cue..

personally Iam not in the camp of dogs ignoring because they want too if they've had enough training. I think this was simply a lack of generalization or proofing that "come" means the same thing when he says it as when she says it in the outdoor context.

If the dog genuinely didn't understand the cue, he can't be blowing a person off.

**fawkese1** · 02-27-2010, 02:59 PM

i tell people that if they can't get clover to do something to get me... especially when they don't know what to do. then i can get the situation under control and we can take a sec to work on it, and i can tell them the things i would like them to try etc... i totally think Nic did the right thing by getting you. now you can use this as an example for him to learn about training kimber too, and i really doubt it will make kimber believe he doesn't have to listen to Nic, i think as you pointed out, Nic's lack of praising him is something that should be worked on, but walking away when he doesn't know what to do, or grabbing you when it is really important for the dog to do something... totally the right way to go...imo, and ime...

i think you and Nic should work on a restrained re-call with kimber, my sister and i did this a lot with clover... on of us would hold him while the other would walk away then call him... we didn't do exactly what the vid that crio posted about it suggested, but it was similar and it really helped... lemme see if i can dig that up...

Brittany · 02-27-2010, 04:43 PM

I do not use the word "Come" I use "Here" I changed it because the "Come" cue was poisoned. I will not tell Nic to use "Here" because I know Kimber will not always listen to him. Until Nic has the time to start working with Kimber more nothing I can do. I do think lately he is starting to become more interesting in training him. Especially after seeing him listen to me immediately at the vet and then again when he go out.

The plan right now is to make some of "playtime" at the dog park training. We are going to get some treats and call him from one to the other.

Nic loses patience but I think if sees progress he will be more than willing to work at it with Kimber. Kimber is VERY food motivated so I think it will be okay. It's mostly finding the time for him.