calming signals....

**fawkese1** · 08-27-2010, 02:10 AM

ok, so i have a question...

some of you have read "on talking terms with dogs, calming signals" and many of you already know some of the stress/calming signals that your dogs throw at you... my question is related to that, but first some back ground

one of my big pet peeves in regards to human/canine relationships is the human attachment to petting dogs, for some reason humans seem to think that if they can just get their hands on the dog's head to rub it around, that it will be some sort of magical communication with the dog... the problem is that lots and lots of dogs aren't too keen on petting, and even dogs that enjoy petting, don't want to be pet by a human they aren't familiar with... there are dogs that are super "touchy feely" lol, my family has had a couple of labs who seemed to exist for the sole purpose of getting into any persons face and getting scratches or pets, but these dogs, imo, are sort of rare...

anyway, all that said, i believe that clover genuinely enjoys being pet. he is a leaner, he will lean right up into you when you pet him, lol, well maybe not "you" he does not like to be pet by just anybody, he is very selective and must build a relationship with you first, but once you are "in" he will honor you by allowing you to scratch his butt!... when you stop petting him, he will lean harder, and look at you, as if to say "what're you stopping for? i was enjoying that!" very cute... the only thing is, that when these petting sessions are going on, there is A LOT of lip licking, yawning etc, which should all indicate that he is stressed in some way, right? but like i said, if i stop he seems to ask for more, in fact, i've done little experiments, trying to figure out how much he does "like it" if pet him at different intensities, i've leaned over him/or not, i've pet him while moving away from him... all the while, he continues to lean into me, and my hand, as if he is enjoying the experience and would like me to continue... he will also walk past and sorta rub against me, almost like a cat, until i pet him, then he stands still and just soaks it in...

so my question is, am i crazy? do you think he likes it? or am i ignoring his signals and stressing him out? my other thought is that the petting get's him a bit over-stimulated and he is lip-licking to calm himself, not bc he doesn't like it, but bc he likes it so much... does that sound crazy?

**Criosphynx** · 08-27-2010, 01:44 PM

I honestly have this same question myself. Tippy is a leaner,sit-in-your-lap-uninvited, ill-poke-you-with-my-nose-if-you-dont-touchme type and she does the same thing...yet when you do pet her, she stiffens up and lip licks, averting her eyes, but the second you stop, she beggin for more

But then, Kiwi is the same way, omg pet me, but doesn't throw the signals at all. She likes ALL touching, ears, tail, pat her on the head stupidly...you name it

My conclusion is its an eternal conflict...Kiwi does not have body handling issues and tippy does...I think its like, the whole times shes being petted Tippy is afraid som'one is going to throw in som'thing she doesn't like...like being picked up, or her feet held....

thats my specualtion, that its an internal conflict between, OMG PET ME and Iam slighly afraid of what you might do to me.

I could be way off base tho...

the only other explaination I could think of, it that som' people think the signals are for calming the other person down, so maybe pet slower, more like a massage and he if he throws fewer signals?

pawzaddict · 08-27-2010, 03:35 PM

My dog LOVE when we pet them, rough em up, etc. Now when we have company Glacier goes right over and wants to be pet, Harvick (once he warms up to them) LOVES his read scratched lol. I think if the dog starts to throw calming signals then if the person does more of a massage like Crio said or just rub the tips of the ears then you can see if the dog approves. I am obsessed now with watching for calming signals! One thing I started to do with Peyton and Chunk since they are the most head shy with company is rub their ears and eyes. I read that wolves tend to lick ears and eyes when relaxing with each other, almost like a symbol of affection. I found that the eyes especially they love having rubbed (gently of course)l. Harvick puts his ears back and lip licks sometimes when we pet him, I am working slowly on this (it only happens in the room with the lights off and he gets too over threshold to stop) I hope I answered the question, sorry if I didn't.
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**fawkese1** · 08-27-2010, 04:55 PM

thanks guys

and yeah, you both sorta answered my question

seems like there is no real answer, unless i can teach clove to really speak...

crios... i've tried varying the petting with him, and i get mixed results, he doesn't stiffen like tippy, in fact he will lip-lick and yawn, and turn his head away, all the while melting into me...

pawz... clover LOVES to have his eyes rubbed... and not necessarily softly, when i say he pushes into me, he pushes hard, like if i'm not balanced he would easily push me over... that is anywhere i'm petting him...

thanks for your answers, glad to know that i'm not crazy in this

if anyone comes across any articles related to this, i'd love to read them!

Mikey · 08-27-2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

when you stop petting him, he will lean harder, and look at you, as if to say "what're you stopping for?

That's the key right there. Same as if you think one dog is bullying another-stop it and see what the bullyee does...So if you think he might not enjoy petting you stop and observe. If they solicit more by licking your hand, nudging you or leaning into you-they like it. If they don't react to you stopping or try to leave-they've had quite enough thank you

Quote:

of lip licking, yawning etc

My take on that is context...If you are training clover and getting frustrated and he shows eye whites and licks and tries to look away...that's stress. If he's clearly soliciting contact and licking while doing that-I'd say he's enjoying it

**kmes** · 08-27-2010, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fawkese1

in fact he will lip-lick and yawn, and turn his head away, all the while melting into me...

Roxy also licks her lips, and turns her head....

She'll jump in laps, rub against legs, and nudges people with her nose to get them to pet her. When they do she often turns so that they rub her behind. Then when they do, she licks and turns her head. If people stop she starts nudging them until they start rubbing again...

Maybe lip licking isn't always a sign of stress... or we just have some confused dogs

Rose Madder · 08-29-2010, 02:11 AM

I believe every animal reguardless if it is a cat or a dog has it's own differences. (I am reading the book now)

**alfi** · 08-29-2010, 05:39 AM

Abby is acting crazy if someone new to the house don't pet her. She barks at him/her and she chases his hand trying to put it above her head. Many of my friends think that she is being aggressive

...but not. At the moment you touch her she turns her head away and licks the air moving her tail slowly like she is careful but if you stop petting her she chases you again.

I have noticed tho that her behavior is totally depended on the person petting her. With less careful people she is absolutely ok...but with cautious ones I can see her being careful although she REALLY wants them to pet her.

DeeSpark · 09-02-2010, 07:29 AM

Deedee loves being pet by anyone and everyone. Shes the kind of dog who'd run off with anyone.

Sparkys a bit more hesitant. Especially around some of my guy friends. I can't say I blame them. They like to stir him up and annoy him. He loves being pet by people he knows. But when it's people he doesn't know he just stands there and is like "uhh ok whatever then". Sometimes he'll get to like them. Other times if theres to many people he just gets sick of it.

Tess · 09-05-2010, 05:05 PM

I've been studying the exact same question. I think its not so simple as Turid Rugaas tells us in her book. I think she makes it simple in the book just to get the basics across to people, but I bet she too thinks there is a lot more subtlety.

I watch my dogs greet each other each morning, and there is a lot of yawning, stretching, licking. The two of them are incredibly close and comfortable with each other, often resting touching or draped over one another (see cute pics in their albums!), so I don't think they are telling each other to back off, its more like a conversation.

So I am starting to think some of these signals are also part of interacting with friends. I'm thinking you have to have context to understand, and also the way they do the signals can differ, sort of like an accent on different syllables.