2 yr Lab and 4 yr Hound - Play is getting out of hand

mrmelody

Hi everyone,
I've been reading around here and and really enjoy the postings.
Thought I might see what the good people around here think of my situation with my pups. Please excuse me if it is a bit long.

One year ago we brought a 1 yr female lab-mix home from the Humane Society. We also, already owned a 3 year old female-hound mix that came from the shelter also. Even though they were both females and the hound was older than the lab, they got along really well, and still do. They are also great with our kids (8 and 10 yr old) We have a fenced in yard, so the 2 dogs have full run of the yard when we are at work during the day and come in at night to sleep.

The lab is high energy so it plays and plays, too much for the hound at times, but usually a simple growl and they are done and move on. The past 3 months though we have witnessed some disturbing episodes where the lab and hound are playing tug of war with a toy or stick and the play turns to a fight. After a yelp they break and leave each other alone. The last time this happened the hound received some deep bites and hurt. Yet the lab had no idea and was still in play mode after.

An easy fix for many would be to send the lab back to the shelter or rescue, but I just can't come to believe that is right thing to do since these dogs are wonderful with our family and kids. The toy and tug-a-war play is getting out of hand and one got hurt, but I think we should be focusing more on isolating, muzzling, dog penning when we are not there with them.

Anyone else have some suggestions or ideas while I'm brainstorming? I would love to hear.
Thanks for listening and reading,

kmes

It sounds like one dog is guarding.
Do the fights only happen when playing with toys or over other high value items?
Or do fights occur at other times?

mrmelody

Actually, the older dog usually tries to get eh younger to play and takes a toy to her. Once the other dog interacts, they are at tug-of-war. then it escalates. but the younger ends up dominating, but jumps off with tail between her legs when the elder yelps. (or vice versa) This only happens when they want to play together.

Criosphynx

so this would make the lab two years old correct? She is hitting maturity and often tolerance levels change at maturity.

It sounds like either guarding begining, as mentioned above, or frustration escalating. How much exercise do they outside of the yard/home? How much training do they get?

welcome to the forum btw

mrmelody

Yes. The lab is 2 yrs old now and the hound is 4.

Before this last episode, exercise for them was generally everyday together, when we would get home after school and work, and throw ball and play with both of them at the same time. Every once in a while a dull grrr would come from the elder dog if the lab tried to take its ball, but the elder would then try to take the ball over to the lab to encourage it to take it.

Also, usually 2-3 times a week, my wife takes them to a local park and walks them together on a walking path for 20-30 minutes. They walk great together and never grrrrr at each other or other dogs. They drink out of the same water bowl at the park too with no problems.

As for training, since we brought the lab home a little over a year ago, we have been working with her daily on her "name", "no" command, and several other basic commands such as heel, stay, sit, etc. The hound is worked with also, but not as much. We've had her since a pup and she listens well.

Not that I'm looking at any easy fix here, but an wireless electronic collar and transmitter was mentioned by an individual to possible help train the two dogs together when they begin gaurding or frustration over whatever item. Using the sound option while training. Not sure though, I do not have experience with that type of collar other than years ago we used one to help train for excessive barking.

Thank you for the warm welcome

Criosphynx

personally, when I have run into similar issues (never to the point of blood tho) I take the offending toy(s) away for at least two weeks and then introduce it again. The second there is any possessiveness over the toy, the game ends. This has always nipped it in the bud, no need to be forceful about it, just a neutral "toobad!" and the toy goes away, out of site.

as far as the collar goes, if you use the stim or nic on the collar, you may (actually will likey) teach the dog you are punishing that the other dog is causing the pain. This can make aggression worse because in that moment of extra pain, they can attack the other dog because they think its attacking them.

using the vibration or the sound to get thier attention and redirect them isn't a bad idea, but if you can already get their attention with your voice, or by touch, then its just another thing to fumble with and not needed imo

mrmelody

A combination of these 2 is what we are planning to use for training after talking it over and deciding we CAN keep this pup and make it work. We will be introducing toys and watching behavior. Using our voice and taking the toy away is going to be the first line of training. At this time they will also be wearing their collars. We would only use sound if it gets too heated, but we will still be right there.
Then over time, we may gradually allow them to roam as we watch from a distance. Should they decide to show the wrong behavior with one another we will use voice and then sound/vibration.
During the days when we are not at the house, we will be separating them.
We feel really good about this. Do you have any suggestions or see anything we might be missing? We will be receiving the collars tomorrow so we should be able to start training this weekend depending on the weather.
Thank you Criosphynx for your honest opinions and input.

Criosphynx

the only thing that could backfire, it taking the toy away can actually make them MORE possesive of it. Just think, your taking their cool thing away! So once they figure this out, they may begin to refuse to give it to you...

two ways to handle that, one is to leave them with the toy and walk away....many dogs will abandon the toy and follow you, this IMO is the best way, since you don't risk creating problems over removing the toy physically, but you still get your point across...

the other way it to teach a really solid DROP IT with positive methods...you tho, still risk teaching them that obeying punishes them.

basically your going to have to try and see...preferably redirect them and interupt them, but toy removal can and usually works too. Just watch for the possesiveness of it, because it will cause a change in your training plan LOL

Another note on the vibrate, if I remember correctly, its not adjustable in strength...so som' dogs will find it as scary/aversive as an actual stim (shock) and in that case I don't recommend using it....you will likely want to pair the vibration with a treat for many reps before using the collar for anything else...you want to know their reaction to it before you use it. Perhaps feed several meals by hand this way.

If they do react poorly to the vibration, you could end up with a fight just like with the stim.

keep us updated.

pawzaddict

I agree with Crio when it comes to the vibrating collar. We have a deaf dog and are looking into using one for training but have heard to only pair it with positive feelings. IMO this is where people go wrong with shock collars... if used as a punishment how could that actually calm a dog? I suggest using the collar as a tool to get them to come to you. So...if you see them START getting heated, use the collar, treat them when they come to you, etc. Its almost a way to interrupt the negative behavior before it even begins. Maybe use the tool of getting them to come to you while playing appropriately. Show them that playing well together ='s treats and appraisal. GL

mrmelody

Thanks Pawz and Crio for the insight.
Wish I had seen it before we started trainging over the weekend, but I think we did very well and actually followed many of things you two suggested.

On Sunday we set aside some time to keep an eye on the dogs and work with them with collars on. (Before we ever put them on, I made sure to let the dogs hear them and check their reaction. Instant stopping of whatever they were doing and curiosity. Once outside we let them go free. It took a little while but eventually the 4yr old hound brought her ball up to the 2 yr old pup and starte grrrring to get her to play. I told her no and she stopped. I praised her. They were around each other the whole time we were outside. Laid next to each other. followed each other to chase birds, etc. There were only 2 times a pushed the vibrate. That is only because my no alone didn't stop it and they started to play a bit harder witht eh toy between them. On the second time with a good "NO" and vibrate they stopped and moved on to something else. 'By the time we finished training they were getting the idea, BOTH of them.

So it is a small step forward, but so far thigns are positive and the dogs are happy to be together again some. We still are keeping them separate during the day when we are at work and school, but we are having them together while we are home. We'll see how it progresses over time.